View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1551
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What "could" happen 100 years from now is not a good reason to deny people the right to enter into a civil marriage with each other. 100 years ago we wouldn't have had interracial marriages either.

    Also, you are still arguing under the false premise that because it might be a choice, that homosexuals are not being discriminated against because of it. This is wrong. Our discrimination laws clearly cover religion as protected against discrimination, and there is no doubt that religion is a choice. The argument you really must make is if there is a legitimate reason for that discrimination, such as homosexuality would be harmful to someone in the relationship or even someone outside the relationship(must be able to prove the harm) or that there is a unique government benefit that every heterosexual couple that is allowed to marry provides society, that homosexual couples do not. If you can't prove these, then the discrimination is unjust and wrong.
    No, I'm not. I think it IS a choice. What I am saying is that those that argue that it is not choice cite studies that if read and understood in their entirety don't say that it IS NOT a choice. What they all say is that it may be genetic. Not that it IS genetic.

  2. #1552
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I agree with what Alastor said on this but would like to add that if homosexuals are granted "rights and privileges" based on lifestyle choices then it sets a precedent that can be utilized by folks who have what is now considered unnatural lifestyles to claim the same legitimacy. Keep in mind that this conversation would have never taken place a hundred years ago. What happens a hundred years from now? Do we legitimize everyones lifetyles simply because there is a small group who wishes some aberrant lifestyle to be legitimized?
    Well, and that's a good point.

    Whether or not someone is a pedophile is probably also somewhat genetic.

    I think the line in the sand gets drawn where the question of, "Does this harm someone else or society" is answered affirmatively.

    The reality is that homosexuality is not harmful to society, nor to any individual rights the rest of the citizenry are entitled to.

    For deviations or "abnormalities" that are harmful (such as pedophilia) the answer is that we must try to prevent it.

    I don't think the line in the sand is determined by whether or not we're genetically predisposed one way or the other. The only reasonable place to draw the line is when it impacts society negatively.

    In which case homosexuality would not qualify as it doesn't infringe upon anyone else's individual rights and does not degrade society in any substantive way.
    Last edited by Alastor; 06-16-10 at 09:39 PM.

  3. #1553
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No, I'm not. I think it IS a choice. What I am saying is that those that argue that it is not choice cite studies that if read and understood in their entirety don't say that it IS NOT a choice. What they all say is that it may be genetic. Not that it IS genetic.
    So if sexual preference is a choice, then you could easily enter a homosexual relationship with another man? I mean, if its a choice, all you would have to do is choose to like him.

  4. #1554
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Exactly my point really. Why is polygamy illegal in the US? If a man is married to two consenting females, or vice versa, who's to say that is wrong?
    Actually, there are at least some people who believe polygamy should be legal. I do. I just think that it should definitely be more of a group marriage thing, rather than a man has multiple wives or woman has multiple husbands thing. There are currently a lot of negative stereotypes and child-abuse stigmas that have to be overcome before this will get anywhere close to the backing that gay marriage has.

    A major problem with polygamy marriage is that there are extra legal considerations that could cause major issues, such as who has last say in deciding a medical decision of one of the group or parental rights questions, especially if it is one woman and two men, if the group raises the children as a group. Also, divorce would be a lot more complicated, not to mention including more people into the marriage. It is more complicated than gay marriage. Still doable, but it would be better to try to address at least some of these issues before trying to get the law changed.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, there are at least some people who believe polygamy should be legal. I do. I just think that it should definitely be more of a group marriage thing, rather than a man has multiple wives or woman has multiple husbands thing. There are currently a lot of negative stereotypes and child-abuse stigmas that have to be overcome before this will get anywhere close to the backing that gay marriage has.

    A major problem with polygamy marriage is that there are extra legal considerations that could cause major issues, such as who has last say in deciding a medical decision of one of the group or parental rights questions, especially if it is one woman and two men, if the group raises the children as a group. Also, divorce would be a lot more complicated, not to mention including more people into the marriage. It is more complicated than gay marriage. Still doable, but it would be better to try to address at least some of these issues before trying to get the law changed.
    I'd add to this by pointing out that our society, because of the roots of our culture, may be somewhat undermined by polygamy. In some cultures polygamy can work because of the fundamental belief systems of the people within it.

    I don't think ours is one of those cultures.

    In a few decades that may change, but right now I could see an awful lot of waste, destruction, anarchy, and degradation of society as a result of legalized polygamy - because of the belief system most members of our culture have currently.

    Ancient Greece? It'd probably work. 2010 Hoboken, Indiana? Not so much...

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No, I'm not. I think it IS a choice. What I am saying is that those that argue that it is not choice cite studies that if read and understood in their entirety don't say that it IS NOT a choice. What they all say is that it may be genetic. Not that it IS genetic.
    But it still doesn't matter because discrimination laws don't just cover things that are genetic. Religion is not genetic. Yet no one on the anti-gm side seems to want to address this. You can say that discrimination is okay as long as it is there for a good, just reason. All you have to do is address why it is okay to discriminate against homosexuals because of their sexuality.

    Yes, I think it is not a choice. I don't see why anyone would choose to be homosexual. Especially in countries where it is pretty much a death sentence. I have no idea what causes people to be homosexual, but I am pretty certain from what I have read about it and what I have observed and what I know about my own sexuality and sexual attractions, that it is not a conscience choice.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I'd add to this by pointing out that our society, because of the roots of our culture, may be somewhat undermined by polygamy. In some cultures polygamy can work because of the fundamental belief systems of the people within it.

    I don't think ours is one of those cultures.

    In a few decades that may change, but right now I could see an awful lot of waste, destruction, anarchy, and degradation of society as a result of legalized polygamy - because of the belief system most members of our culture have currently.

    Ancient Greece? It'd probably work. 2010 Hoboken, Indiana? Not so much...

    And once you kick the door open to redefine marriage to accomodate gays, what makes you think you can shut it again before the polygamists, polyamorists, and who knows what else get their foot in? Seriously, if you can justify gay marriage, it is hard to imagine how you could justify denying the same rights to polygamists, group-marriage, line-marriage, or basically about any damn thing anybody wants. The very same pro-SSM arguments would be used against you.

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  8. #1558
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I'd add to this by pointing out that our society, because of the roots of our culture, may be somewhat undermined by polygamy. In some cultures polygamy can work because of the fundamental belief systems of the people within it.

    I don't think ours is one of those cultures.

    In a few decades that may change, but right now I could see an awful lot of waste, destruction, anarchy, and degradation of society as a result of legalized polygamy - because of the belief system most members of our culture have currently.

    Ancient Greece? It'd probably work. 2010 Hoboken, Indiana? Not so much...
    And you are actually probably right, and the harm that may come from legalized polygamy being abused would probably be worse than allowing those few that would actually like to just legitimately benefit from it to have it. It is definitely something that could not be done right now. I do see your point. But I still feel bad for those people who are truly polyamorous, however, since they don't seem to really be clamoring for polygamy to be legal anyway, it probably isn't a big deal.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #1559
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Well, and that's a good point.

    Whether or not someone is a pedophile is probably also somewhat genetic.

    I think the line in the sand gets drawn where the question of, "Does this harm someone else or society" is answered affirmatively.

    The reality is that homosexuality is not harmful to society, nor to any individual rights the rest of the citizenry are entitled to.

    For deviations or "abnormalities" that are harmful (such as pedophilia) the answer is that we must try to prevent it.

    I don't think the line in the sand is determined by whether or not we're genetically predisposed one way or the other. The only reasonable place to draw the line is when it impacts society negatively.

    In which case homosexuality would not qualify as it doesn't infringe upon anyone else's individual rights and does not degrade society in any substantive way.
    Well, there you go....you don't think homosexuality infringes on anyone else's rights, while others do. This is where it comes down to a simply societal interpretation of what is right and what is not.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    And once you kick the door open to redefine marriage to accomodate gays, what makes you think you can shut it again before the polygamists, polyamorists, and who knows what else get their foot in? Seriously, if you can justify gay marriage, it is hard to imagine how you could justify denying the same rights to polygamists, group-marriage, line-marriage, or basically about any damn thing anybody wants. The very same pro-SSM arguments would be used against you.
    Not necessarily. The government could use the valid argument that they need to draw a limit somewhere in the number of people that can benefit from the marriage contract. I think pretty much all of what you are describing is polygamy marriages, just perhaps different versions of it. Just as homosexuals are now having to prove why their marriage can benefit the government while not harming it, the polygamists would have to do the same thing. It is a much more difficult argument when you consider the complications that would inherently come from polygamy marriage anyway. Homosexual marriage would still just involve 2 people, as heterosexual marriage does. No extra legal complications come from allowing 2 homosexuals to get married.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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