View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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  • No

    186 43.26%
  • Yes, explain

    244 56.74%
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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1511
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I started having my suspicions in high school, but wasn't until college that I made my decision.
    Suspicions? What do you mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    What do you think their stances are, exactly?
    Here are some (but by no stretch of the imagination all) examples:

    However, the available evidence indicates that the vast majority of lesbian and gay adults were raised by heterosexual parents and the vast majority of children raised by lesbian and gay parents eventually grow up to be heterosexual.
    This statement was endorsed by the American Psychological Association, the American Phsychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers.

    Those are some pretty credible organizations.

    The Royal Association of Psychologists state:

    It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice.
    This quote is from the American Academy of Pediatrics:

    Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences.
    Here's a quote which I took straight out of Wikipedia:

    Chromosome linkage studies of sexual orientation have indicated the presence of multiple contributing genetic factors throughout the genome.
    This stance was based on the findings of a study done by Dean Hamer.

    Deam Hamer is a doctor of medicine from Harvard. He is also the director of the National Cancer Institute and a leader in the Human Genome Project.

    This study was then backed by an independent study by some fellow named Sanders who has similar credentials and prestige.

    Those two studies were then supported when several other doctors formed a study and researched it on their own.

    Those doctors also had similarly high credentials and credibility.



    And we could go on... But yeah, those are some pretty compelling peer reviewed studies and organizations that are pretty sure you're mistaken.

  3. #1513
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Here are some (but by no stretch of the imagination all) examples:



    This statement was endorsed by the American Psychological Association, the American Phsychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers.

    Those are some pretty credible organizations.

    The Royal Association of Psychologists state:



    This quote is from the American Academy of Pediatrics:



    Here's a quote which I took straight out of Wikipedia:



    This stance was based on the findings of a study done by Dean Hamer.

    Deam Hamer is a doctor of medicine from Harvard. He is also the director of the National Cancer Institute and a leader in the Human Genome Project.

    This study was then backed by an independent study by some fellow named Sanders who has similar credentials and prestige.

    Those two studies were then supported when several other doctors formed a study and researched it on their own.

    Those doctors also had similarly high credentials and credibility.



    And we could go on... But yeah, those are some pretty compelling peer reviewed studies and organizations that are pretty sure you're mistaken.
    actually, all those are cut directly from wikipedia, which is not a credible source. Further, single paragraphs excerpts are not indicative of the entire study in any of those cases.

  4. #1514
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    That's simply not true. Some studies indicate that homosexuality may not be a concscious choice. There has been no physiological evidence to support that.

    As I have stated before, it is not only the religious who oppose it.
    First of all, I did not claim all studies indicated that sexuality is not a conscience choice. I will add a qualifier into the statement, in that most legitimate research shows that sexuality is not a conscience choice. Also note, I did not say anything about genetics. Conscience choice indicates that a person actually gets to think about who they are attracted to. Much of the legitimate research indicates that a person's sexuality and/or attraction is on a subconscience level. The research that is on the side of gay rights, including that accepted by most major medical associations, has indicated that it is most likely a combination of any or all of the following, genetics, environment, and early childhood interactions/experiences.

    However, even saying all this, it really doesn't matter. Discrimination is treating someone differently due to a difference. The discrimination laws we have do not specify that the difference must be genetic or even that the difference can't be a choice. In fact, the fact that we specifically list religion as protected against discrimination proves that it doesn't matter if sexuality is a choice or not. The only thing that should be taken into account when determining if someone is justly or unjustly being discriminated against is whether or not the reason the group is discriminated is for the protection (or perceived protection) of people or property when it comes to government-controlled issues such as civil marriage.

    Also, the argument that gays are not being discriminated against because they can marry anyone of the opposite sex should work no better in the gay marriage argument than the one saying that everyone was free to marry within their own race worked during interracial marriage argument. There is a qualifier on civil marriage that has no legally legitimate justification. I have even given reason why the argument that the government's main interest in marriage is procreation doesn't work. There are some marriages in certain states where it is only allowed when procreation between the two people involved is not possible.

    And, you must ask yourself, if someone made a law that only people of the same religion could get married, would it not be discrimination? Eventhough the law is being enforced equally, in that everyone is free to marry anyone within their religion. In fact, since it is religion, it could be argued that it should be even more acceptable because the people are free and able to change their religion whenever they want.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #1515
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    actually, all those are cut directly from wikipedia, which is not a credible source..
    And your source for attacking both wikipedia and the quotes is?

  6. #1516
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I'm not missing the point, homosexuality is a choice and doesn't deserve extra rights any more so than choosing any other unnatural or unsavory behavior does. My opposition has nothing to do with religion, and even if it did, religious beliefs are just as valid a reason to be for or against something as anything else is. The fact of the matter is, the majority of Americans are against it. Why they are against it is their own business. Lastly, a persons sexual preference is as well protected against discrimination as a persons religious preference is.
    As far as this goes, what "extra" rights are homosexuals asking for? If you want to claim that they are asking for the "extra" right to marry someone of their own sex, then you are still wrong. When homosexuals get the right to marry, everyone will have the right to marry someone of the same sex as well as the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. See, that argument works both ways. There is nothing "extra" about it.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    actually, all those are cut directly from wikipedia, which is not a credible source. Further, single paragraphs excerpts are not indicative of the entire study in any of those cases.
    Uh... You do know how to use the links at the bottom of Wikipedia, right?

    I do. And I did. Go to the web sites. The statements are there.

    Sorry dude, this is a cop-out.

    The statements are linked to in the footnotes of Wikipedia and they go to the primary sources from those institutions.



    Your denial that the quotes are accurate tells me that if such organizations made such statements, you'd be compelled to change your mind.

    Of course if I link directly to the document for you (since apparently you're not familiar with footnotes and how to use them), you'd probably then say that these institutions and parties aren't credible too.


    For a guy that seems to try to to come off as objective and scholarly, so far you've shown yourself to be neither.

  8. #1518
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    And your source for attacking both wikipedia and the quotes is?
    I'm not attacking wikipedia. What I'm saying is that anyone can post whatever they want on it. It's not a peer reviewed publication and therefore not a legitimate source for factual information.

  9. #1519
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First of all, I did not claim all studies indicated that sexuality is not a conscience choice. I will add a qualifier into the statement, in that most legitimate research shows that sexuality is not a conscience choice. Also note, I did not say anything about genetics. Conscience choice indicates that a person actually gets to think about who they are attracted to. Much of the legitimate research indicates that a person's sexuality and/or attraction is on a subconscience level. The research that is on the side of gay rights, including that accepted by most major medical associations, has indicated that it is most likely a combination of any or all of the following, genetics, environment, and early childhood interactions/experiences.

    However, even saying all this, it really doesn't matter. Discrimination is treating someone differently due to a difference. The discrimination laws we have do not specify that the difference must be genetic or even that the difference can't be a choice. In fact, the fact that we specifically list religion as protected against discrimination proves that it doesn't matter if sexuality is a choice or not. The only thing that should be taken into account when determining if someone is justly or unjustly being discriminated against is whether or not the reason the group is discriminated is for the protection (or perceived protection) of people or property when it comes to government-controlled issues such as civil marriage.

    Also, the argument that gays are not being discriminated against because they can marry anyone of the opposite sex should work no better in the gay marriage argument than the one saying that everyone was free to marry within their own race worked during interracial marriage argument. There is a qualifier on civil marriage that has no legally legitimate justification. I have even given reason why the argument that the government's main interest in marriage is procreation doesn't work. There are some marriages in certain states where it is only allowed when procreation between the two people involved is not possible.

    And, you must ask yourself, if someone made a law that only people of the same religion could get married, would it not be discrimination? Eventhough the law is being enforced equally, in that everyone is free to marry anyone within their religion. In fact, since it is religion, it could be argued that it should be even more acceptable because the people are free and able to change their religion whenever they want.
    I agree with most of what you said here. So why don't homosexuals (most of which are not religious) accept civil contract rather than insist that a religious rite (marriage) be applied to them?

  10. #1520
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Uh... You do know how to use the links at the bottom of Wikipedia, right?

    I do. And I did. Go to the web sites. The statements are there.

    Sorry dude, this is a cop-out.

    The statements are linked to in the footnotes of Wikipedia and they go to the primary sources from those institutions.



    Your denial that the quotes are accurate tells me that if such organizations made such statements, you'd be compelled to change your mind.

    Of course if I link directly to the document for you (since apparently you're not familiar with footnotes and how to use them), you'd probably then say that these institutions and parties aren't credible too.


    For a guy that seems to try to to come off as objective and scholarly, so far you've shown yourself to be neither.
    They are linked to statements which you have not read in their entirety. All those studies state there there are indications that there may be a link to genetics but to date it's not been able to be proven.

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