View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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    186 43.26%
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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1451
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    The OP seems to assume that allowing gay marriage is the default, which I don't understand. We don't allow it now. We've never allowed it in the past. Marriage has, until very recently, been defined as an entirely heterosexual institution. Logically, the burden of proof should fall on those who are lobbying to allow gay marriage, because they are the people arguing for a change. And as much as I am in favor of gay marriage, I see very few people actually making arguments for why it should be allowed--how it would benefit society if it were allowed, how allowing gay marriage would bolster and promote the institution of marriage. Certainly, such arguments would be more compelling than empty appeals to "equal rights" and accusations of bigotry.
    These have been argued already, and overlooked.

    Civil marriage (which is what we are discussing), is a social contract between two people that the government endorses for its own benefits. Some of these benefits include, but are not limited to, improving the odds that children will be raised by at least two people, most likely their mom and dad, helps to provide stability, gives the government someone to essentially "bill" for any debts/social obligations that a person has/leaves behind when they die (especially true when there are no blood relatives for the person), and it keeps track of who is actually married, to help to protect one party from getting cheated. There most likely are more.

    From the way that the government treats heterosexual marriages, it is obvious that it is not necessary that all or even most need to apply to all marriages. Some of these same benefits could be gained from having homosexual marriages. That is hard to argue. They should not have to prove "extra" benefits that would come from their marriages, but some are even having to do that. For example, one of the questions the Prop. 8 judge gave to the pro-gay marriage lawyers is to "Is there proof that giving homosexuals the right to marry will reduce discrimination against them?".

    Not evey heterosexual couple is even able by law to have children, so the argument that heterosexual marriage's main purpose is procreation is completely down the toilet. There are at least a couple of states where first cousins can marry only if at least one of them is medically or naturally sterile.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #1452
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    (I know that all of you against gay marriage hate this reference, but too bad) Again, much of the country was against interracial marriages as well. Not all, but many believed it was a sin against God to marry outside your race (this was true, despite the whole white supremacy thing, even today some feel this way, especially in the South). They had state constitutional amendments to limit marriage to one man and one woman of the same race. The arguments were very much the same. So was the SCOTUS right in their ruling that interracial marriage is a right, even if it went against a what the majority believed?

    And I know this will bring the whole race is not the same as sexuality argument, but I contend you are wrong. If you put any other trait in their, including religion, the argument would still be sound. And religion is definitely more of a choice than sexuality. Even if you put some other feature up there with a caveat that said that artificial change is acceptable, the same outcome would be achieved. If the law said that blondes could only marry other blondes, but having your hair dyed blonde is acceptable to achieve this marriage, then would the law really be discriminating? Is it right?
    You can contend all day and it will not change the fact that it is not race and is completely unrelated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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  3. #1453
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You can contend all day and it will not change the fact that it is not race and is completely unrelated.
    In one case race was discriminated against in the other case gender is being discriminated aggainst hence the relationship btwn the two.

  4. #1454
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You can contend all day and it will not change the fact that it is not race and is completely unrelated.
    The only reason you and most on your side see it as unrelated is because you see race as okay to be protected from discriminated, but sexuality you don't. Because it really doesn't matter what the trait is that people are discriminating against, or whether it is a choice or not, we should still be protecting people's rights.

    There are so many similarities in the arguments against interracial marriage and same sex marriage, you would have to be completely illiterate not to see them, whether you acknowledge them or not.

    Those against interracial marriage said, "It will destroy the sanctity of normal marriage."
    Those against interracial marriage said, "Everyone still has all the same rights to marriage. Anybody can marry anybody else of the same race."
    Those against interracial marriage said, "Marriage has always been between people of the same race."
    Those against interracial marriage said, "It is a sin. We can't condone something that we consider a sin."

    All these arguments sound very familiar to me. They all seem to be almost the exact arguments coming from those against same-sex marriage. And I have actually heard these arguments in my lifetime against interracial couples. There are still people today, who find interracial couples and mixing the races in general an abomination and/or a sin. And not all the people who do find it wrong are white.

    But it comes down to the government looking at the restrictions placed on civil marriage and asking why they are there, not just accepting it's how it's always been and leave them that way. If the restrictions have good sound reasons for why they are there, i.e. they are in place to protect someone, not a concept, then they should stay. But if the restrictions are there simply to protect tradition or regulate morality, then those restrictions should be taken out, just like those anti-miscegenation laws and sodomy laws.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #1455
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    In one case race was discriminated against in the other case gender is being discriminated aggainst hence the relationship btwn the two.
    Sexual preference is not race.

    Same goes for post above.

    They are not the same and it is looking like scientifically speaking ain't going to change.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-15-10 at 03:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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  6. #1456
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Sexual preference is not race.

    Same goes for post above.

    They are not the same and it is looking like scientifically speaking ain't going to change.
    Race is not the only thing protected against discrimination. You seem to think it is. Religion is also protected against discrimination. And religion is a choice. It most certainly has nothing to do with genetics, not that can be proven anyway.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #1457
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Race is not the only thing protected against discrimination. You seem to think it is. Religion is also protected against discrimination. And religion is a choice. It most certainly has nothing to do with genetics, not that can be proven anyway.
    Well there's no proof that says sexuality is a choice, most assertions in this subject are based on lack of evidence.

    Like the Big Bang; there's nothing that proves it, there for creationists and the like argue that it cannot be true simply because there's no evidence. But anyway, that's not the discussion.
    Last edited by Cilogy; 06-15-10 at 03:35 PM.


  8. #1458
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    Well there's not proof that says sexuality is a choice
    I agree. I just don't think it matters if it is or not. A person's sexuality does not harm anyone else. So why should it matter if it is a choice?

    I'll reference another question (paraphrased) that Judge Walker (Prop. 8 judge) asked, "If it is proven that male sexuality can't change, but female sexuality can, would it make a difference in the discrimination/marriage laws with concern to male and female sexuality?".
    Last edited by roguenuke; 06-15-10 at 03:38 PM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #1459
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    so then whats the argument then? Im lost
    Government pokes around but people dont and even the ones that "try" are still wrong and its still none of their business
    It’s the government poking around that I do not like.
    The argument was that your statement of such things not happening was incorrect because of this.

    Which you apparently admit here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Im missing what the debate is about and how any of this has to do with the OP
    You really are fixated on the OP, aren’t you…

    This has nothing to do with the OP directly, it was only in response to statements made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    bottom line is your marriage is still none of my business, you seem to agree so I’m lost to how anything else is relevant?
    Your marriage is none of my business, nor should it be anyone else’s, including the government’s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Why not? That's exactly what you are doing. You want the law to reflect your views and force your views on others. You try to dress it up as something else, pretending that your moral values-- your opinions-- are self-evident facts that everyone else should automatically accept. Unlike others who have given good reasons, reasons that appeal to others' consciences, why gay marriage should be allowed, you've done nothing but stamp your foot and accuse everyone who disagrees with you of shoving their values down everyone else's throat-- oblivious to the fact that you are doing the exact same thing and less politely to boot.
    I’ve gotta say, Korimyr…While I may not always agree with you, your statements still make me think.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #1460
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And that is where your problem lies. Please point out where I said this?
    Here is the where I got that idea:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    As for the bolded part, if you use your morals as a basis for law, and your morals come from your religion then yes you are using your religion as the basis for laws. You can't spin your way out of that one.
    Oh I see. So if peoples morals are based in nothing it's OK. If peoples morals are based on religion, they should not be allowed to vote etc. Pot, meet kettle.

    Hows that for spin?
    The "Pot, meet kettle." part infers that your example was talking about her.

    In fact her point must have really stung because you didn't even address it. You have told us that it would be a sin to support secular gay marriage. Nowhere in the Bible will you find that government can't offer secular marriage.

    Does God honor marriages that happen under one of his competitor's names?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    An incorrect conclusion can be drawn from logic, but you knew this.
    No, incorrect conclusions come from logic fallacies. Appeal to popularity is a logic fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No one can say for certain but it is thought that it was to keep the tribes of Israel separate from the pagan neighbors who dressed in garish multi fabric clothing. For the Israelites modesty was a big deal.

    For the Jewish people they have a name for it, I don't remember what it was. It means something literally like "we have no idea, but it is the law." It does have a long explanation, but you can look up the Jewish interpretation yourself.
    Yeah, I can't remember the saying either, but I know what you are talking about.

    In Christianity it's basically, "We are not to question God." It's considered blasphemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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