View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1161
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    A lot of people think otherwise, Blackdog and I among them. We consider marriage to be between a man and a woman and that gay marriage is a misnomer, like calling a tail a leg, and a change of an existing institution to accomodate a tiny minority whose lifestyle doesn't fit the defintion to start with.

    Historically, marriage has been male-female and as much about family (the production and upbringing of children) as about couple-dom. This has been true for all of recorded history in almost every culture. Even cultures that were fully accepting of homosexual activity (ie certain ancient Greek city-states) normally reserved marriage to mean male-female and associated with reproduction. Reproduction is not a natural function of homosexual behavior. The very few exceptions in ancient history involved aristocrats who were powerful enough to flout social convention and bend the law.

    So, from the perspective of those like me, SSM is an attempt, not to provide equal-access, but to alter the definition and function of a vital and fundamental institution in a way we consider unnecessary and unreasonable.

    Now, let me ask you the same question: if "marriage" is just a name, why does it matter so much to YOU? Why not just accept "Civil unions" and gain all the legal benefits you say you want? Why is it so important to call it marriage?
    Historically, a lot of things were different. Women couldn't vote, homosexuals were prosecuted for their sexuality, people who weren't the same skin color of the majority were forced to use separate drinking fountains, people weren't allowed to marry or cohabitate with people of different color/race. As I've stated before, things change.

    If, theoretically, marriage and civil unions became the same thing, except one refers to heterosexual couples and the other homosexual couples, it would still be discrimination. A better compromise, rather than have two different words for the same thing, is to have all civil marriages referred to as "civil unions". This would be fine to me, but utterly pointless in the scheme of things. People would still refer to themselves as "married", I'd almost guarantee it. I know I would. The government would have to pay an ungodly amount of money to change all that legal paperwork just to change the wording from "married" or "marriage" to civil union. (Not to mention, would the churches then fight to try to keep the terms "wedding" and "wedded"? If so, more changes to legal documents.) Although the wording might be changed, the meaning would still all be the same.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #1162
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    People can have their private beliefs, but when dealing with public matters, one must put their beliefs aside, and focus on making laws that are fair, and ensure equality for all. You don't have to accept SSM, but the state should. It doesn't matter if the majority are against it, do you think the majority of people in the south would have voted against Jim Crow laws if the Supreme Court hadn't made them unconstitutional? They wouldn't of, but we all know that was a great decision that the Supreme Court made. Did most people in the south think so? No, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a good decision to repeal Jim Crow.
    And the civil unrest, and resentment is a weak argument, are we supposed to not let people have equal rights because some people may be upset about it? The time for equality, the time for justice is always, and forever now.
    And I think history show us that even when dealing with things that seem supported by the majority, such as anti-miscegenation laws, even if they are forced to change, there is very little actual civil unrest from the decision. Generally speaking, those who were fighting so hard against the change will just accept it grumbling when it happens and move on.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #1163
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Redress, the traditions of marriage have been modified, yes... but it has remained male-female throughout history with hardly any significant exceptions.

    Explaining why I consider this significant would take pages and pages of dissertations on how societal traditions tend to result from survival-oriented needs, and how changing them drastically should be done only at need and with great caution and consideration. I don't feel like typing several pages worth of arguments on this topic, so let's just sum up:

    It matters to me.
    It doesn't matter to you.
    Therefore you and I need not bother to argue about it.
    Sorry for the delay, I was busy blowing **** up in a game. The game is rated "M", and is one that some religious people would like to see banned. Thankfully(since the game is a blast...Borderlands, highly recommended), we do not make laws based on religious beliefs.

    Just because something was done a certain way once does not make it the best way. We no longer live in a situation where lifespans are so short, wars and disease so prevalent, that every possible person who can reproduce should. If the gay people in this world marry, it will not lead to depopulation. That was the primary reason for encouraging male/female marriage. The world changes. We change traditions every week.


    All those gay couples got children either through the intervention of a third party or through adoption. Gay coupledom has no functionality in reproduction.
    False. Many are from previous heterosexual relations. Further, the stability in a relationship through marriage is a plus for those children. You do not want to argue on the topic of gays and kids, I have lived it, I know it.

    You also have to keep up with technology. A gay woman who wants a kid can conceive quite easily with today's technology. It's a tad more complex for gay men, but there are still options, including adoption and fostering, which benefit society. Arguing against GM based on family, reproduction and children is a pure loser. As I have shown, gays do have kids, can have kids, and it is beneficial for those children to have a stable family.


    Redress, I AM extending the same courtesy to you. You are free to vote according to your conscience. I will do the same, and the outcome will be whatever it is.
    I cannot stop you from voting your conscience. You cannot stop me from voting mine. Would you want to? Is it a free country if you tell me I can't vote according to my beliefs?

    What is your purpose in this post? If it is to persuade me to change my mind, it didn't even come close. Nor is it likely to persuade Blackdog, or other theologically-conservative Christians to change their mind and support SSM. We are not allowed to. We are, in point of fact and within the context of our beliefs, forbidden to do so.

    Do you want me to seperate my religious convictions from my political position? I've already told you why that isn't likely to happen. I have to live with my conscience and be able to sleep at night.

    I may sympathize with the desire of gay persons to have access to the same kinds of benefits and status as married couples. My sympathy is irrelevant; I am forbidden to support them in that issue, on pain of the displeasure of my God. A willingness to compromise in the matter of Civil Unions is as far as I can go in that direction, and frankly that itself is pushing the envelope. Some of my co-religionists would give me a hard time about that, if they knew.

    If it happens it happens. I can't support it.
    The purpose of any debate is to persuade. I may not persuade you, but I may persuade some one reading this thread. I am showing why your religious beliefs are irrelevant to the law, why using children as an argument actually hurts your case, and why crying for tradition is a failed argument.




    Matter of perspective. I believe marriage is a holy institution, whether the individuals entering into it acknowlege that or not. The government can pass a law saying "marriage is NOT a holy institution" and that will not change my belief that it IS.

    I already know that you disagree with me. What more is there to say?
    The extra baggage you place on the word marriage is irrelevant to what the law says it is.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The government is secular yes. That doesn't mean the individual voters are, or that those they elect to represent them are, or that the beliefs of the majority are irrelevant.

    The beliefs of the majority have always been relevant in law in a democratic state. Granted that a court might force a change in the law against the will of the majority, but it is supposed to be based on existing law/Constitution, which presumably has (or at least had, at one time), majority support.

    Forced change that the majority opposes has always brought with it certain problems: civil unrest being a common one. Resentment againt the beneficiaries being another. You'd be better off to wait until you had majority support, if that happens.

    Again... if you get SSM somehow, then you do. I won't slit my wrists over it. I just can't support it.
    As we are seeing in various places in this country, legality is an important aspect of this discussion. The courts have, are now, or will soon decide this issue in a number of states.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Who said I actively campaign against it? I said I can't support it, and have tried to explain why. In response I've been told I wish to impose my religion on others, that I think my personal religion should dictate government policy.

    I'll say it once more: if you get it passed, then you just do. It will have to be without my support for reasons I've already explained.

    As for divorce and adultery, I'm against those too, other than certain limited exceptions for divorce.

    WHO here does not let their personal beliefs, whatever those might be, guide their political positions to some degree? Redress, IT... have you EVER ONCE advocated that the government should not allow people do something? Then you've made a value judgement based on what you think is right, and have no grounds to bust on me for doing the same thing.
    If I advocated something like this it would be because it infringes on the right of another person.
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  6. #1166
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    easy, not sure what you dont get, he said it is male and female THAT IS NOT TRUE, the majority is but it is not always male and female, which part dont you get?
    He said “but it has remained male-female throughout history with hardly any significant exceptions.

    He did not say “he said it is male and female” exclusively as you erroneously are trying to imply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    fact remains gay marriage has been around for a very long time so HISTORY wouldnt change and of course male female is the majority because hetero is the majority.
    He never implied anything about it not being around. He said just like you “HISTORY wouldnt change and of course male female is the majority because hetero is the majority.

    Again no difference other than you throwing in some unrelated thing about the time line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    so there i pointed it out like you asked
    history supports marriage HAS been between gay ALSO for a long time and that IS significant because its a fact that wont allow a true claim that it is male-female it has also been gay.
    Which still has nothing even remotely related to what he said?

    Intellectual dishonesty is a cop out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    really thats all that has to happen and that means you support it?
    wow thats a HUGE stretch!
    do you spend your days trying to stop everything that your religion says is wrong? if not you are already sinning according to your logic.
    No I don’t and that is not a sin because I cannot be everyplace and know everything. I know my own religion and faith better than you, but thanks just the same.

    Nice fallacy argument though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Im going to have premarital sex tonight everybody's who religion doesnt support this better try their best to stop me or you will be supporting my sin and therefore be a sinner yourself
    Are you going to offer up a point or continue this rant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    also correct me if im wrong but if this is the way you feel I guess that means you also feel the hell with all people that dont think like you, the hell with the constitution, the hell with others rights because your religion is MORE important than AMERICA and everybody else in it who disagrees? or is it "just" on the gay issue and marriage, other things are ok? LMAO
    Ad-hom, great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    LMAO of course it does unless you want to ignore that there are probably a 1000 things that are legal or illegal that are not in line with your religion and you probably do nothing about it or dont cry that "its forcing" anything on you, it points to the heart of the issue, arrogance, hypocrisy and you want to discriminate
    We fight against those as well. It is just not major news. So no, no hypocrisy here.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-13-10 at 05:02 PM.
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  7. #1167
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Now if this is not the case, you would support the government calling all marriages "civil unions".
    Oddly enough, I thought that is what we were discussing until recently.

    I personally support changing the name of all legal marriages to “civil unions” or something, the purpose of which is to completely separate the secular and religious parts of marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Sorry for the delay, I was busy blowing **** up in a game. The game is rated "M", and is one that some religious people would like to see banned. Thankfully(since the game is a blast...Borderlands, highly recommended), we do not make laws based on religious beliefs.
    I second that, Borderlands is epic.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    It doesn't matter if marriage has mostly remained male-female throughout history. As others have pointed out, simply maintaining the status quo is not a legitimate reason to ban same-sex marriage, just as maintaining the status quo was not a legitimate reason to ban interracial marriage. People who argued against interracial marriage could have stated (and they would have been correct) that "marriage has mostly remained between people of the same race throughout history." That might be true, but it's not a compelling reason for the state to ban interracial marriage. The interracial marriage debate is a very apt analogy, especially since people used the same types of arguments (it's not natural, it's sinful, etc.) to argue against it. Heck, the Virginia Supreme Court ruled against interracial marriage saying:

    Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
    People misinterpreted God's word then, and the same thing is happening now in my opinion. People opposed interracial marriage because they thought it was sinful, harming children, unnatural, etc. It's the exact same arguments that are being used now. And they have already been proven false.

  9. #1169
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    He said “but it has remained male-female throughout history with hardly any significant exceptions.

    He did not say “he said it is male and female” exclusively as you erroneously are trying to imply..
    if he isnt "implying" that then his statement is MEANINGLESS because otherwise his statement is FOR gay marriage not against it because he statement would then read like this, "you can't change history which is mostly straight marriage to now making it <big pause> mostly straight marriage" lol nothing changes if thats what he mean

    if im wrong, then so be it but if you are right his statement is meaningless because allowing gay marriage would NOT change history



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    He never implied anything about it not being around. He said just like you “HISTORY wouldnt change and of course male female is the majority because hetero is the majority.

    Again no difference other than you throwing in some unrelated thing about the time line.
    then we agree his statement is meaningless to the debate and has no bearing, thanks



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Which still has nothing even remotely related to what he said?

    Intellectual dishonesty is a cop out.
    says you but like i said if my interpretation of what he was saying is right, then his argument is meaningless
    if yours is right, his argument is still meaningless
    so either way, its meaningless, which it is



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No I don;t and that is not a sin because I cannot be everyplace and know everything. I know my own religion and faith better than you, but thanks just the same.

    Nice fallacy argument though.
    no fallacy at all you claim that by not doing anything you support it and im willing to bet that there are things you know about you do nothing about



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Are you going to offer up a point or continue this rant?
    no matter how much you want it to be its not a rant, the point is you better try and stop me or you are showing support, you may not believe my example to be sin but my point is clear there are many people that do nothing and in america they shouldnt



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Ad-hom, great.
    does that mean you cant answer or im more right than you want to admit? LMAO
    I said correct me if im wrong so do so if i am? I didnt say you feel this way for sure im asking since it would "seem" true with your logic and reasoning

    see how that works, its more civil and intelligent than just assuming and proclaiming how someone else feels even if they tell you different like you have done in previous threads



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    We fight against those as well. It is just not major news. So no, no hypocrisy here.
    oh its clear hypocrisy and discriminative whether you chose to see it or not, those two facts wont change
    Last edited by AGENT J; 06-13-10 at 05:36 PM.
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  10. #1170
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I personally support changing the name of all legal marriages to “civil unions” or something, the purpose of which is to completely separate the secular and religious parts of marriage.
    It's so completely unnecessary to create a paperwork nightmare simply because some religious people aren't able to understand the clear difference between the secular and religious parts and definitions of marriage. They are already separate. Clinging to semantic arguments and pretending that they aren't separate doesn't change that reality.

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