View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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    186 43.26%
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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1141
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    The government isn't creating a Holy institution. Never has. In fact, only the two parties involved can make it a Holy institution.
    Yep, the Holy Institution part is a private religious ceremony. But the state sponsored institution of marriage is nothing more than a legal contract.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Yep, the Holy Institution part is a private religious ceremony. But the state sponsored institution of marriage is nothing more than a legal contract.
    Which is the problem we are having in this discussion. If some one made a law regulating their religion, BD and Goshin would both be, rightly, up in arms over it. They however see nothing wrong with using their religion to make laws regulating others.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I think you missed my point.
    No, I get your point, even if you wanted to, you are forbidden from supporting it.

    There are a great many marriages that are sinful. That is of no concern to secular (government) marriage. Many feel that divorce is a sin. The government needn't worry about that either. You think that your personal religion should dictate government policy. You don't have to support it. But to actively campaign against the use of an aptly descriptive word seems more highly motivated than the more ubiquitous problem of heterosexual sinful marriages.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Wow, some interesting new reading. Thanks everyone for participating!

    I see some fallacy claims out there but thats ok, they wont be the first and probably wont be the last.
    Anyway since all reasons have been debunked by the OP and criteria does anybody have any NEW reasons or any that hasn't been already debunked repeatedly?


    Thanks! still interesting though.


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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You know better than this Goshin. The legal institution that is marriage in the United States is not millennia old. That is the topic of conversation. Yes, it was adapted from traditions, but the key word is "adapted". Further, it has evolved since the country has been founded. You made it a point to ignore that appeal to tradition is a weak argument, but it is important in this argument. Every advance society has made has been by changing tradition. If tradition is so important, then at least be consistent, not pick and choose what traditions you like, and call those important because they are traditional, and ignore those you don't like, because tradition is not important in those cases.
    Redress, the traditions of marriage have been modified, yes... but it has remained male-female throughout history with hardly any significant exceptions.

    Explaining why I consider this significant would take pages and pages of dissertations on how societal traditions tend to result from survival-oriented needs, and how changing them drastically should be done only at need and with great caution and consideration. I don't feel like typing several pages worth of arguments on this topic, so let's just sum up:

    It matters to me.
    It doesn't matter to you.
    Therefore you and I need not bother to argue about it.




    About 1/3 of lesbian couples have under 18 children in the household. About 1/4 of gay male couples likewise. It is believed those numbers are rising. The fact that two gay people of the same sex cannot generate children is a red herring.
    All those gay couples got children either through the intervention of a third party or through adoption. Gay coupledom has no functionality in reproduction.

    Again, this matters to me, but not to you. May as well skip it then.


    Let me cut to the chase. What your book of beliefs says is entirely irrelevant to the laws of this country. The beliefs you want to pick out of it and say are important does not matter to what the law should be, nor are the parts you want to ignore. You are free to believe whatever you want. I will not stand in your way, and I will not try and legislate what you should believe. I just wish you religious folks would show the rest of us the same courtesy
    .

    Redress, I AM extending the same courtesy to you. You are free to vote according to your conscience. I will do the same, and the outcome will be whatever it is.
    I cannot stop you from voting your conscience. You cannot stop me from voting mine. Would you want to? Is it a free country if you tell me I can't vote according to my beliefs?

    What is your purpose in this post? If it is to persuade me to change my mind, it didn't even come close. Nor is it likely to persuade Blackdog, or other theologically-conservative Christians to change their mind and support SSM. We are not allowed to. We are, in point of fact and within the context of our beliefs, forbidden to do so.

    Do you want me to seperate my religious convictions from my political position? I've already told you why that isn't likely to happen. I have to live with my conscience and be able to sleep at night.

    I may sympathize with the desire of gay persons to have access to the same kinds of benefits and status as married couples. My sympathy is irrelevant; I am forbidden to support them in that issue, on pain of the displeasure of my God. A willingness to compromise in the matter of Civil Unions is as far as I can go in that direction, and frankly that itself is pushing the envelope. Some of my co-religionists would give me a hard time about that, if they knew.

    If it happens it happens. I can't support it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Actually, I think you missed his. Your church can recognize or not any marriage as it chooses. The government is not legislating what you believe, or what marriage is or is not in terms of your beliefs. We are talking about laws, which are not holy.
    Matter of perspective. I believe marriage is a holy institution, whether the individuals entering into it acknowlege that or not. The government can pass a law saying "marriage is NOT a holy institution" and that will not change my belief that it IS.

    I already know that you disagree with me. What more is there to say?

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Which is the problem we are having in this discussion. If some one made a law regulating their religion, BD and Goshin would both be, rightly, up in arms over it. They however see nothing wrong with using their religion to make laws regulating others.
    The law, as it already exists in most states, does not allow for homosexual marriage.

    I am not proposing a new law. I am not proposing banning something that already exists. I am telling you that I cannot support the changing of existing law to accomodate SSM.

    If you manage to get it changed, then you do. It will have to be without my support, which I am not allowed to give. I am not trying to impose my religious views on you, I am simply being true to my personal convictions.

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  7. #1147
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    No, I get your point, even if you wanted to, you are forbidden from supporting it.

    There are a great many marriages that are sinful. That is of no concern to secular (government) marriage. Many feel that divorce is a sin. The government needn't worry about that either. You think that your personal religion should dictate government policy. You don't have to support it. But to actively campaign against the use of an aptly descriptive word seems more highly motivated than the more ubiquitous problem of heterosexual sinful marriages.
    Who said I actively campaign against it? I said I can't support it, and have tried to explain why. In response I've been told I wish to impose my religion on others, that I think my personal religion should dictate government policy.

    I'll say it once more: if you get it passed, then you just do. It will have to be without my support for reasons I've already explained.

    As for divorce and adultery, I'm against those too, other than certain limited exceptions for divorce.

    WHO here does not let their personal beliefs, whatever those might be, guide their political positions to some degree? Redress, IT... have you EVER ONCE advocated that the government should not allow people do something? Then you've made a value judgement based on what you think is right, and have no grounds to bust on me for doing the same thing.
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-13-10 at 03:32 PM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    but it has remained male-female throughout history with hardly any significant exceptions.
    false
    like it has already been posted since we are talking about america and fair and equal rights and freedoms this doeant matter much even if it was true but lets talk about it. the majority have been male-female but the fact remains gay marriage was around like 2000 years ago
    now things you said in other threads
    you will still be just as free as you are RIGHT NOW to no support it, nobody is asking you to support it

    also gay marriage wont change anything about marriage that is already effecting you besides that its already not holy per the law. Nothing NEW will change since theres marriages out there already that your religion doesnt see nor does it have to.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    All those gay couples got children either through the intervention of a third party or through adoption. Gay coupledom has no functionality in reproduction.

    Hetero marriage has no "function in reproduction", either.
    In more than half of all US households with minor children, the children are not the biological children of both partners. Further, more than half of all children in the US do not live in a household with both their biological mother and father.
    Since it is more than half, you can no longer call households with children headed by the children's biological mother and father "the norm".
    It is no longer the norm.
    Society has changed, and laws have adapted along with it.

    Over 60% of all gay women in the US have biological children (and that's not even counting gay adoptive mothers).
    Approximately 86% of heterosexual women in the US are mothers.

    That's not a really huge difference.

    Gay couples (and especially gay parents) need and deserve the legal protections that marriage offers, as much as hetero couples/parents do.
    They are taxpayers and law-abiding citizens, and there is no valid reason to withhold it from them.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    I've never understood why people care so much about stopping "teh gays" from getting married. To people who oppose gay marriage, I have two questions. 1. Have you ever had a gay acquaintance?, and 2. Are you a Christian? I think opposing gay marriage based on fear that it will destroy the institution of marriage is irrational, by that logic we should outlaw divorce and prosecute adulterers, which brings me to religion. If you support a law denying rights to homosexuals just because you believe the bible is against it, then you are truly doing more harm to America then two people who are in love getting married.

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