View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1121
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Then it would be fair to say that your position is "separate but equal".
    No. It is separate and remain separate, two men or two women don’t make a marriage. It is two people cohabitating for the purpose of partnership.

    I am however not a person without a heart. If two people love each other, when it comes to visitation and all the other legal perks of a marriage, I don’t want to see them denied. This however does not support the life style, condone it or legitimize it as being OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    I didn't compare it to race. I likened it to an example of separate but equal discrimination that happened to be employed against blacks.
    No discrimination here. Gays can marry whomever they want. As long as they are not family, animals, more than one person and of the opposite sex etc. Many restrictions apply to marriage and it is in no way discriminatory.

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Homosexuals are a protected class against discrimination. It doesn't matter why they are gay. It doesn't have to be race based. It's the discrimination that is important. The discrimination against religion would earn the same comparison and the religious aren't born that way.
    Read above.

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    You believe in separate but equal status because it's a "sinful 'lifestyle'".
    No. I believe in separate and stay separate as far as marriage goes.

    Don’t take that the wrong way. It has nothing to do with actual separation as in apartheid etc. Just not letting two men or women get married.

    It is sad I even had to clarify that statement. Not for you IT, but the nut fringe that would jump in with claims of bigotry etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Civil rights doesn't only apply to race.
    I agree, but this is not relevant to me as they have no right to marry as far as I am concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Civil rights should never be put to a vote.
    I agree, but they have not right.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-13-10 at 12:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #1122
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why does it matter so much if someone is born gay or if it is an unconscience choice?
    I don't know. Other people keep comparing it to the civil rights movement. So as far as I am concerned it does not apply either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Religion is a choice, and it is completely protected by antidiscrimination laws. I've used this example several times before in other threads. It would be considered discriminatory for anyone to make a law that prohibited people of a certain religion from getting married. It would also be considered discriminatory to make any law that prevented two people of different religions to get married. It wouldn't matter how many people felt that it was immoral. It wouldn't matter how many people wanted to call it something else. Heck, it wouldn't even matter if every member of the church took a vow of celibacy or even if they had to all be either naturally or medically infertile to join the church. It would still be considered discrimination.
    Restrictions on marriage already apply. You cannot for instance marry more than one person. A sister cannot marry a brother etc. Many restrictions based on mental capacity etc.

    So where do we draw the line? I have drawn my line, I am not willing to let anyone cross it on this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #1123
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I don't know. Other people keep comparing it to the civil rights movement. So as far as I am concerned it does not apply either way.



    Restrictions on marriage already apply. You cannot for instance marry more than one person. A sister cannot marry a brother etc. Many restrictions based on mental capacity etc.

    So where do we draw the line? I have drawn my line, I am not willing to let anyone cross it on this issue.
    You have to draw the line where there is harm to others by actions.

    I would gladly be fighting for polygamy, as long as certain rules went with it about age limits and it being more of a joint marriage, rather than one of a couple having multiple wives/husbands. I think it is just as discriminatory to restrict how many people can get married as it is to restrict which adults can get married.

    Incestual marriage is restricted because generational incest can cause birth defects. If there was a restriction on it similar to some state laws concerning first cousins getting married that ensured no procreation, then I wouldn't stop it. Although, truthfully, civil marriage is pretty unnecessary concerning incest, since immediate blood relatives have most of the rights/privileges that come from a civil marriage. The main point of civil marriage is to make someone who is not a blood relative legally related to you. That wouldn't be necessary in the case of brothers and sisters.

    Age restrictions, although you didn't list them, I will address them, are in place because we do not consider a person old enough to enter into a legal contract until they are an adult, 18.

    I have addressed these before. The government shouldn't be using marriage to restrict legal adults from making unions that make adults a legal part of another adult's family.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 06-13-10 at 12:44 PM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You have to draw the line where there is harm to others by actions.

    I would gladly be fighting for polygamy, as long as certain rules went with it about age limits and it being more of a joint marriage, rather than one of a couple having multiple wives/husbands. I think it is just as discriminatory to restrict how many people can get married as it is to restrict which adults can get married.

    Incestual marriage is restricted because generational incest can cause birth defects. If there was a restriction on it similar to some state laws concerning first cousins getting married that ensured no procreation, then I wouldn't stop it. Although, truthfully, civil marriage is pretty unnecessary concerning incest, since immediate blood relatives have most of the rights/privileges that come from a civil marriage. The main point of civil marriage is to make someone who is not a blood relative legally related to you. That wouldn't be necessary in the case of brothers and sisters.

    Age restrictions, although you didn't list them, I will address them, are in place because we do not consider a person old enough to enter into a legal contract until they are an adult, 18.

    I have addressed these before. The government shouldn't be using marriage to restrict legal adults from making unions that make adults a legal part of another adult's family.


    Civil Unions would accomplish everything you're talking about.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You have to draw the line where there is harm to others by actions.
    No I am not. So by not supporting polygamy laws I am hurting people? By not supporting marriage between family members I am hurting someone?

    Not likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I would gladly be fighting for polygamy, as long as certain rules went with it about age limits and it being more of a joint marriage, rather than one of a couple having multiple wives/husbands.
    So you would support it with restrictions? That would be hurting people wouldn’t it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I think it is just as discriminatory to restrict how many people can get married as it is to restrict which adults can get married.
    And I think it’s not. So where do we go from here?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Incestual marriage is restricted because generational incest can cause birth defects. If there was a restriction on it similar to some state laws concerning first cousins getting married that ensured no procreation, then I wouldn't stop it. Although, truthfully, civil marriage is pretty unnecessary concerning incest, since immediate blood relatives have most of the rights/privileges that come from a civil marriage. The main point of civil marriage is to make someone who is not a blood relative legally related to you. That wouldn't be necessary in the case of brothers and sisters.
    So what? You are placing restrictions on people. You are hurting someone.

    Sorry I know that sounds bad, but I am just being a little ****. Forgive the sarcasm.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Age restrictions, although you didn't list them, I will address them, are in place because we do not consider a person old enough to enter into a legal contract until they are an adult, 18.
    Why is it 18? Pretty arbitrary considering I know 16 and 17 year olds more mature than allot of 20 year olds.

    So you are OK with restrictions as long as you find them acceptable?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I have addressed these before. The government shouldn't be using marriage to restrict legal adults from making unions that make adults a legal part of another adult's family.
    Yes they should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #1126
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Civil Unions would accomplish everything you're talking about.
    "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
    Juliet, Romeo and Juliet, William Shakespeare

    If it is the same thing, then it is just a matter of semantics. It is completely fiscally irresponsible to make two different words, and therefore two sets of rules and paperwork with those different words in each, to cover pretty much the same thing.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #1127
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No I am not. So by not supporting polygamy laws I am hurting people? By not supporting marriage between family members I am hurting someone?


    Not likely.



    So you would support it with restrictions? That would be hurting people wouldn’t it?



    And I think it’s not. So where do we go from here?



    So what? You are placing restrictions on people. You are hurting someone.

    Sorry I know that sounds bad, but I am just being a little ****. Forgive the sarcasm.



    Why is it 18? Pretty arbitrary considering I know 16 and 17 year olds more mature than allot of 20 year olds.

    So you are OK with restrictions as long as you find them acceptable?



    Yes they should.
    The laws should be there to prevent hurting people and property. In many cases, laws that go beyond this are discriminatory, such as those concerning marriage. This is why, essentially, laws that banned interracial marriages were deemed to be discriminatory. This is why sodomy laws were deemed to be unconstitutional. The government's job is not to regulate morality. It is to protect the people and their property. The government must do so fairly. When it restricts who person can make a legal part of that person's family, while allowing others to do so, without a fair explanation why, then discrimination is occurring.

    Some restrictions are necessary when there is potential that certain factors can cause harm to someone, and in the case of marriage, age is seen as one of those factors, as is incest.

    I have given reasons to justify my restrictions that pertain to the potential safety or welfare of at least one of the participants in the marriage or a product of the marriage, or why the marriage really isn't completely necessary in the first place. I can give more if you would like. You need to show valid reasons to justify why restricting gay marriage because of sexuality is potentially protecting the safety or welfare of one or both of the marriage members or a product of the marriage or anyone outside of that marriage because of that marriage. The same thing for polygamy itself.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
    Juliet, Romeo and Juliet, William Shakespeare

    If it is the same thing, then it is just a matter of semantics. It is completely fiscally irresponsible to make two different words, and therefore two sets of rules and paperwork with those different words in each, to cover pretty much the same thing.
    A lot of people think otherwise, Blackdog and I among them. We consider marriage to be between a man and a woman and that gay marriage is a misnomer, like calling a tail a leg, and a change of an existing institution to accomodate a tiny minority whose lifestyle doesn't fit the defintion to start with.

    Historically, marriage has been male-female and as much about family (the production and upbringing of children) as about couple-dom. This has been true for all of recorded history in almost every culture. Even cultures that were fully accepting of homosexual activity (ie certain ancient Greek city-states) normally reserved marriage to mean male-female and associated with reproduction. Reproduction is not a natural function of homosexual behavior. The very few exceptions in ancient history involved aristocrats who were powerful enough to flout social convention and bend the law.

    So, from the perspective of those like me, SSM is an attempt, not to provide equal-access, but to alter the definition and function of a vital and fundamental institution in a way we consider unnecessary and unreasonable.

    Now, let me ask you the same question: if "marriage" is just a name, why does it matter so much to YOU? Why not just accept "Civil unions" and gain all the legal benefits you say you want? Why is it so important to call it marriage?

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  9. #1129
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    A lot of people think otherwise, Blackdog and I among them. We consider marriage to be between a man and a woman and that gay marriage is a misnomer, like calling a tail a leg, and a change of an existing institution to accomodate a tiny minority whose lifestyle doesn't fit the defintion to start with.
    Marriage in relation to the government is a legal construct. If the law says that two men or two women can get married, then by definition it is calling a tail a tail. What a church or individuals call it is irrelevant, since what matters, and what we are conserned with is what it is in legal terms.

    Historically, marriage has been male-female and as much about family (the production and upbringing of children) as about couple-dom. This has been true for all of recorded history in almost every culture. Even cultures that were fully accepting of homosexual activity (ie certain ancient Greek city-states) normally reserved marriage to mean male-female and associated with reproduction. Reproduction is not a natural function of homosexual behavior. The very few exceptions in ancient history involved aristocrats who were powerful enough to flout social convention and bend the law.
    Many marriages have nothing to do with children. Further, gay marriage is very much about families. Allowing gay marriage is a benefit to raising families.

    So, from the perspective of those like me, SSM is an attempt, not to provide equal-access, but to alter the definition and function of a vital and fundamental institution in a way we consider unnecessary and unreasonable.
    Except it is needed and reasonable. Equal access to people who have no reason to be denied that access is not unreasonable.

    Now, let me ask you the same question: if "marriage" is just a name, why does it matter so much to YOU? Why not just accept "Civil unions" and gain all the legal benefits you say you want? Why is it so important to call it marriage?
    Because either a civil union is just another name for marriage, and therefore adds unnecessary complexity to the laws, or civil unions have different rights, in which case it is still excluding a group from those rights for no good reason. If a civil union and marriage are the same thing, then call them both the same thing. If different, then we have the same problem we have now.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Just to clear up a misperception that many posters seem to have, a civil union is not the same thing as a marriage.

    This article gives a pretty good overview of why it isn't, and contains some other helpful links:

    Difference Between Civil Union and Marriage - Civil Unions vs. Gay Marriage

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