View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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    186 43.26%
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    244 56.74%
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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1111
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Which is why men and women now use the same restrooms...
    It's a matter of propriety, like men not being "allowed" to wear skirts to the office.
    It's not a matter of law.
    It's voluntary self-segregation.
    There is no law against entering the wrong restroom.
    Some extra-paranoid moms continue to bring their sons into the women's restroom until the kids are practically old enough to shave. Nobody cares.

    If the matter were brought before the SC, it would be ruled unconstitutional to forbid someone access to a public restroom on the basis of their sex.
    But since there is no law against entering and using any public restroom you wish, and the segregation is entirely voluntary, there's nothing to rule on.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that restrooms are separate but equal whether that segregation is voluntary or not. According to the Supreme Court, one gender is being voluntarily discriminated against, but I honestly couldn't tell you which.

    And while it may not be a law that men stay out of the women's restroom, public restrooms are still divided. One has "Women" on the door and one has "Men" on the door. If public courthouses had three restrooms, one that said "White men" one that said "White women" and one that said "Coloured People" would that be ok so long as there wasn't actually a law that forbade black men from entering the "White women's" restroom?

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Then why even bother giving them civil unions and the same rights as marriage?
    Because it would at least give them the same legal protection under the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    It doesn't really matter if they are born gay or choose to be gay. It's about two same-sex individuals' liberty to enter into a marriage with the rights that heterosexuals currently have. As it would not harm one other person, there is no need to restrict them from this institution. There is no need to give it another title as each marriage is a personal institution that doesn't affect other peoples' institutions.
    If it did not matter, why is it always mentioned? If people are going to continually compare it to race, as you did, then you are wrong.

    Sorry I have repeated what? 35 to 40 times at least my own position. No real need to repeat it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    This thread isn't titled "Blackdog, does he have the right to choose whether to support laws or not?". It's "Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?" You've done this with other people. I'm on topic. You are changing topics.
    I am not changing anything. A comparison to the civil rights movement is not a good argument. This is not about race.

    I have already said why it is not about race and you said it does not matter. So again this has nothing to do with my right to do whatever I think is necessary legally to stop gay marriage. Unless something trumps my rights as a citizen, it is done.

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Sexual orientation should not be a discriminating factor as far as the government is concerned.
    I agree. Does not change the fact I would vote against it if it came to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    There is no law against entering the wrong restroom.
    Yes their is. It is called public indecency. We arrested 2 individuals on 2 separate occasions. The fact is most people do not report it as it is an accident most of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that restrooms are separate but equal whether that segregation is voluntary or not.
    And there's no point in pointing that out.
    The law can't do anything about the fact that most males and females prefer not to urinate and defecate together in a room with strangers of the opposite sex, and so businesses and public buildings often choose to accommodate their preference not to do so, out of courtesy, by creating two different rooms.

    Just like the Supreme Court can't do anything about the fact that a cluster of black kids choose to hang out behind the gym during lunch hour at the high school, or that Asians appear to have set up camp in the University library. Or the fact that shop class has no females in it, while home economics has only two males on roll, and they're both gay.

    Schools are integrated by law. This law was necessary, because they were once- in the recent past- segregated, by law.
    There is no law that says each classroom in the school, or each table in the cafeteria, must contain a certain quota of blacks, whites, asians and hispanics (or a certain quota of males and females).
    Students are free to self-segregate, within this integrated school framework, if they so desire.
    Or not, if they so desire. Nobody really cares, because it doesn't really matter. The law certainly doesn't care.

    Males using women's restrooms and women using men's restrooms was never against the law, per se.
    Men and women did not used to be segregated by law, ergo no law saying they must now integrate is necessary. Nobody was ever stopping them in the first place.
    If someone attempts to stop an individual from using a certain restroom because of his or her gender, and that individual cares enough to take the matter through the court system, it would eventually go all the way to the Supreme Court, where the Court would rule that such gender discrimination is not allowed.
    There would then be a legal precedent for people of either gender using either restroom.

    But since nobody has yet tried to stop them, there is no such precedent, because the matter has never come up, you see.
    If and when it does, it will be dealt with by the court.
    Right now there is no law prohibiting people of any gender using any public restroom, and so there's no need for a law saying they can. They can. There's no law against it.
    What there is, is a social stigma- not a legal prohibition- against it. A stigma which is slowly eroding away over time, to the point that now the majority of people- if they have to go really bad and 'their' restroom is occupied- will simply use the other restroom without giving it much thought, and nobody thinks anything of it.
    What do you expect the courts to do, forcibly integrate public restrooms?
    They've never been segregated, except in our own minds.
    Free yourself from your inhibitions.

    Somebody ought to declare a national "everybody use the wrong public restroom" day.
    Last edited by 1069; 06-13-10 at 01:00 AM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes their is. It is called public indecency. We arrested 2 individuals on 2 separate occasions. The fact is most people do not report it as it is an accident most of the time.
    Yes, sometimes I forget that I've lived my entire life in what is probably one of the most liberal cities in the entire United States. It affects my perspective.

    At least one state still has a law against "adultery" on the books.
    A number of municipalities have legal prohibitions against using profanity.
    Some towns have outlawed pitbulls; others have outlawed skateboarding.
    Hell, "sodomy" (legal definition: any form of sexual penetration other than vaginal/penile, so... no blowjobs) was against the law in Texas until 2001.

    As I said in my first post on the matter, when somebody cares enough to take the matter all the way to the Supreme Court, they will rule that any individual of any sex (including transsexed individuals) has the right to use any public restroom, and that will become federal law.

    Right now, there is no federal law against it, and so wacked-out townships have the right to make up their own wingnut "laws" about it, along with laws against whistling on Sundays and wearing baggy jeans and backward baseball caps.
    When someone challenges the law, a legal precedent will be set at a federal level, and then said wacked-out townships will no longer have the right to prohibit people from using public restrooms on the basis of their sex.
    Last edited by 1069; 06-13-10 at 01:20 AM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Because it would at least give them the same legal protection under the law.
    Then it would be fair to say that your position is "separate but equal".

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    If it did not matter, why is it always mentioned? If people are going to continually compare it to race, as you did, then you are wrong.
    I didn't compare it to race. I likened it to an example of separate but equal discrimination that happened to be employed against blacks.

    Homosexuals are a protected class against discrimination. It doesn't matter why they are gay. It doesn't have to be race based. It's the discrimination that is important. The discrimination against religion would earn the same comparison and the religious aren't born that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Sorry I have repeated what? 35 to 40 times at least my own position. No real need to repeat it again.
    You believe in separate but equal status because it's a "sinful 'lifestyle'".

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I am not changing anything. A comparison to the civil rights movement is not a good argument. This is not about race.
    Civil rights doesn't only apply to race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I agree. Does not change the fact I would vote against it if it came to that.
    Civil rights should never be put to a vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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  8. #1118
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that restrooms are separate but equal whether that segregation is voluntary or not. According to the Supreme Court, one gender is being voluntarily discriminated against, but I honestly couldn't tell you which.

    And while it may not be a law that men stay out of the women's restroom, public restrooms are still divided. One has "Women" on the door and one has "Men" on the door. If public courthouses had three restrooms, one that said "White men" one that said "White women" and one that said "Coloured People" would that be ok so long as there wasn't actually a law that forbade black men from entering the "White women's" restroom?
    Going to the bathroom is a right????

    Seriously, this is one of the silliest non-sequitors that come up when debates like this happen.

  9. #1119
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The only problem is sexual preference is not race. The fact is people can say you are born with it, but science is still out on that. No "gay gene" has been found etc. Evidence suggesting otherwise is out there, but this is by no means conclusive.

    This has little to do with the debate. Unless you can show I do not have the right to support laws I see as right vs those I see as wrong. You really have no argument here.

    I mean as much as I like your example, it really makes little difference.
    Why does it matter so much if someone is born gay or if it is an unconscience choice? Religion is a choice, and it is completely protected by antidiscrimination laws. I've used this example several times before in other threads. It would be considered discriminatory for anyone to make a law that prohibited people of a certain religion from getting married. It would also be considered discriminatory to make any law that prevented two people of different religions to get married. It wouldn't matter how many people felt that it was immoral. It wouldn't matter how many people wanted to call it something else. Heck, it wouldn't even matter if every member of the church took a vow of celibacy or even if they had to all be either naturally or medically infertile to join the church. It would still be considered discrimination.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that restrooms are separate but equal whether that segregation is voluntary or not.
    Actually... Most places have signs, but it doesn't mean much. There are several buildings I know of where although the rooms are signed differently, it's considered an option so that those that self identify as a particular gender can use the restroom they choose to.

    I'm not certain what the legal status of those restrooms are, but in those environments the restrooms are left to the discretion of the person using them.

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