View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1091
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    So you must have direct conversations with God then?

    You have no true way to know that what is written in the Bible is truly the word of God or delusions from people who lived thousands of years ago. You have no way to truly know if God ensured that "his word" was translated correctly or if man just did the best they could. You have no way to actually know that if what was written in the Bible was actually everything that He wanted to get across or a way for the early churches to better control and/or convert people to Christianity.

    I'm not trying to disrespect your faith or the Bible, but I don't appreciate it when people use what is written in a book from a couple of thousand years ago in a time when many people were trying to gain power and/or influence over the people. Much of the Bible is most likely written in good faith, but that doesn't ensure that it couldn't be biased in some way. Even the teaching of the Bible in modern times is biased.

    I'll give you an example. The story of Sodom is one of the most used ways to "prove" God is against homosexuality. Yet in the story of Lot and Sodom in the Bible, God nor the angels ever said anything about condemning the city because of homosexuality or even "sodomy". God said he was planning to destroy Sodom because it had "turned from him". And the final condemnation came because the townsmen showed up to rape the angels. But, if you have any knowledge of ancient superstitions/beliefs you will know that in that time it was believed that sexual activity with a higher or more powerful being would transfer at least some of those powers to the person committing the act. If the townspeople believed this, they really wouldn't have considered the gender of the angels at all. And it seems to me that God would have been quite ticked off at the fact that the men had just raped/attempted to rape his angels, and really not even have a second thought about the act being a homosexual one. Rape is much worse than homosexual sex, I'd bet. Sodom and Gamorrah had always been taught to me as a lesson against homosexuality, yet looking at the story now, I cannot logically get that from the story in my Bible.
    Sodom and Gamorrah was not a lesson against or on homosexuality.

    As far as the rest goes I have already gone over this many times here and I donít feel like retyping it.

    Rest assured I am fairly well versed in history and the Bible. My faith is not blind, and I know what I am talking about.

    Your understanding of the Bible is not really a concern for me. Your translation and understanding of history is again, of no concern to me. This is supposed to be a debate, not you preaching about my faith or religion. No insult taken, itís just not really the subject.

    The subject is do I have a right to stop gay marriage. Yes, I most certainly do. By the election of officials who represent my views and by voting for laws I feel contribute and make the society I live in more to my liking.

    If you do not like this, you are free to challenge the laws by vote or a court challenge.

    I thank you for being civil and I respect that.

    Now if you have anything relating to the debate itself? I will be very happy to continue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #1092
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    I'll give you an example. The story of Sodom is one of the most used ways to "prove" God is against homosexuality. Yet in the story of Lot and Sodom in the Bible, God nor the angels ever said anything about condemning the city because of homosexuality or even "sodomy". God said he was planning to destroy Sodom because it had "turned from him". And the final condemnation came because the townsmen showed up to rape the angels. But, if you have any knowledge of ancient superstitions/beliefs you will know that in that time it was believed that sexual activity with a higher or more powerful being would transfer at least some of those powers to the person committing the act. If the townspeople believed this, they really wouldn't have considered the gender of the angels at all. And it seems to me that God would have been quite ticked off at the fact that the men had just raped/attempted to rape his angels, and really not even have a second thought about the act being a homosexual one. Rape is much worse than homosexual sex, I'd bet. Sodom and Gamorrah had always been taught to me as a lesson against homosexuality, yet looking at the story now, I cannot logically get that from the story in my Bible.
    If I recall correctly, Lot then offered to let the concupiscent townsfolk rape his daughters instead of his celestial houseguests.
    God approved, and spared Lot's family while destroying the rest of the town.
    Lot's wife was, I believe, magically transformed into a pillar of salt, because she looked back at the destruction after having been warned not to.
    Lot and his daughters took refuge in a cave, where after awhile they seduced their father into impregnating them both.
    God approved of all of this or possibly even dictated it, I don't recall.
    So anyway, yeah, I think that's pretty much the story of Sodom, or maybe I'm just having an acid flashback or something.

    I'm not too sure this tale is credible enough to mandate public policy in the year 2010, however, even if it somehow were about how God hates fags, which I'm pretty sure it's not.
    I think it's more about how God likes incest and perverts who pimp their daughters out to rapists, but then again it's hard to tell what the moral of it is, when there's so much else going on. The story's kind of all over the place, what with angels and pillars of salt and whatnot.

  3. #1093
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    If I recall correctly, Lot then offered to let the concupiscent townsfolk rape his daughters instead of his celestial houseguests.
    God approved, and spared Lot's family while destroying the rest of the town.
    Lot's wife was, I believe, magically transformed into a pillar of salt, because she looked back at the destruction after having been warned not to.
    Lot and his daughters took refuge in a cave, where after awhile they seduced their father into impregnating them both.
    God approved of all of this or possibly even dictated it, I don't recall.
    So anyway, yeah, I think that's pretty much the story of Sodom, or maybe I'm just having an acid flashback or something.

    I'm not too sure this tale is credible enough to mandate public policy in the year 2010, however, even if it somehow were about how God hates fags, which I'm pretty sure it's not.
    I think it's more about how God likes incest and perverts who pimp their daughters out to rapists, but then again it's hard to tell what the moral of it is, when there's so much else going on. The story's kind of all over the place, what with angels and pillars of salt and whatnot.
    Kids…

    Don’t do drugs and tell Bible stories.



    I apologies 10, I just could not resist! It is only a joke!
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #1094
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The subject is do I have a right to stop gay marriage. Yes, I most certainly do. By the election of officials who represent my views and by voting for laws I feel contribute and make the society I live in more to my liking.

    If you do not like this, you are free to challenge the laws by vote or a court challenge.

    I thank you for being civil and I respect that.

    Now if you have anything relating to the debate itself? I will be very happy to continue.
    I don't think it is so much about your right to try to stop it. You have a right to try to stop anything you want. However, most of those for gay marriage don't feel that it should be even up for debate, as far as the government allowing it or not. If this country is truly about maintaining a separation of church and state, then there should really be no issue with gay marriage. Most of the objections to gay marriage are religious. The rest would be someone's own discomfort with homosexuality itself.

    And I'm sorry if you disagree, but you, nor your religion, nor anyone, for that matter, has a right to force the meaning of any word to remain the same or to just belong to you. No one owns the word marriage or its meaning. Plenty of words change their meanings throughout time, especially words used to describe concepts and intangible things, such as marriage. Change is hard, I realize, but it happens. Civil unions are just another name for marriage if they have all the benefits/privileges and responsibilities of a civil marriage. It is pointless to make a separate name for something that is the same thing as another thing just because people are uncomfortable calling it the first word. It is even technically financially irresponsible, because there would be a lot of documents that would need to be unnecessarily changed.

    I know I get to ranting sometimes, and I apologize for that. This is one of the few issues that I am truly passionate about because I have a strong sense of fairness, and I see this as one of those few issues where it is hard to sympathize with the other side when a win for gay marriage would not have any noticable affect on the opposition for it. There is no true harm being done at all by allowing gays to get married, but by denying them a marriage, they are missing out on the opportunities and benefits and privileges that we, as heterosexuals, get to enjoy. I know that I would hate for someone in my family to not be able to legally marry the person they love.

    You are a really civil debater, and I appreciate it. I try not to insult others when I debate, and appreciate it very much when others keep it civil too. Thank you as well.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #1095
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    If I recall correctly, Lot then offered to let the concupiscent townsfolk rape his daughters instead of his celestial houseguests.
    God approved, and spared Lot's family while destroying the rest of the town.
    Lot's wife was, I believe, magically transformed into a pillar of salt, because she looked back at the destruction after having been warned not to.
    Lot and his daughters took refuge in a cave, where after awhile they seduced their father into impregnating them both.
    God approved of all of this or possibly even dictated it, I don't recall.
    So anyway, yeah, I think that's pretty much the story of Sodom, or maybe I'm just having an acid flashback or something.

    I'm not too sure this tale is credible enough to mandate public policy in the year 2010, however, even if it somehow were about how God hates fags, which I'm pretty sure it's not.
    I think it's more about how God likes incest and perverts who pimp their daughters out to rapists, but then again it's hard to tell what the moral of it is, when there's so much else going on. The story's kind of all over the place, what with angels and pillars of salt and whatnot.
    You might be surprised how many kids and adults are taught this story when discussing the evils of homosexuality in Bible study. It is also seen as a story of God's wrath though. I'm not Christian myself, but I was raised that way. Now I just try to learn all about religion that I can. Most of what I have learned lately seems to suggest that many people don't so much study their Bibles or other religious texts, as they do listen to their preacher's, family's, friends', or Bible study group's interpretation of what the Bible says. (That's not really directed to members of this board, since normally I stay out of the direct religious debates, except for this particular matter.)
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #1096
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I don't think it is so much about your right to try to stop it. You have a right to try to stop anything you want. However, most of those for gay marriage don't feel that it should be even up for debate, as far as the government allowing it or not. If this country is truly about maintaining a separation of church and state, then there should really be no issue with gay marriage. Most of the objections to gay marriage are religious. The rest would be someone's own discomfort with homosexuality itself.
    As I said and have shown, separation of church and state has little to do with this situation. In fact people would do far better to use the 14th Amendment and discrimination laws.

    It’s funny. Just because my morals are founded in my religion does not make this a religious issue. I am free in this country to draw my morals from the Bible or thin air as I see fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And I'm sorry if you disagree, but you, nor your religion, nor anyone, for that matter, has a right to force the meaning of any word to remain the same or to just belong to you. No one owns the word marriage or its meaning. Plenty of words change their meanings throughout time, especially words used to describe concepts and intangible things, such as marriage. Change is hard, I realize, but it happens. Civil unions are just another name for marriage if they have all the benefits/privileges and responsibilities of a civil marriage. It is pointless to make a separate name for something that is the same thing as another thing just because people are uncomfortable calling it the first word. It is even technically financially irresponsible, because there would be a lot of documents that would need to be unnecessarily changed.
    No need to be sorry. I see your point, but no right or wrong answer exist for the question of words and meanings.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I know I get to ranting sometimes, and I apologize for that. This is one of the few issues that I am truly passionate about because I have a strong sense of fairness, and I see this as one of those few issues where it is hard to sympathize with the other side when a win for gay marriage would not have any noticable affect on the opposition for it. There is no true harm being done at all by allowing gays to get married, but by denying them a marriage, they are missing out on the opportunities and benefits and privileges that we, as heterosexuals, get to enjoy. I know that I would hate for someone in my family to not be able to legally marry the person they love.
    I see it as condemning people to a life of sin and the state condoning it. I can’t be a part of that in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are a really civil debater, and I appreciate it. I try not to insult others when I debate, and appreciate it very much when others keep it civil too. Thank you as well.
    Lord knows I try to be. It is hard sometimes.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-12-10 at 06:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #1097
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    It's been noted in other polls that DP has a disproportionately large number of members that are atheist or agnostic.... yet if you look at this thread's poll, those opposed to gay marriage lead about 60 to 40 percent.

    There are lots of people who are not particularly religious, or not religious at all, who are against gay marriage.

    Blackdog and I both have, at the core, religious reservations that prevent us from supporting SSM. That isn't the only reason that people have against it, however. Some have concerns that this precedent will open the door for other, stranger arraingements, or for lawsuits against churches that refuse to conduct gay ceremonies.

    For some it is probably simply a gut reaction that "gay" and "marriage" go togther like brussel sprouts and ice cream.

    Whatever the reason, a large majority in the US still oppose it. Possibly that will change in 20 or 40 years. Possibly it won't; predicting trends can be difficult.

    At any rate, demonizing those who oppose the idea of changing the definition of marriage doesn't make your cause more appealing to those who might be undecided.

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  8. #1098
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It's been noted in other polls that DP has a disproportionately large number of members that are atheist or agnostic.... yet if you look at this thread's poll, those opposed to gay marriage lead about 60 to 40 percent.

    There are lots of people who are not particularly religious, or not religious at all, who are against gay marriage.

    Blackdog and I both have, at the core, religious reservations that prevent us from supporting SSM. That isn't the only reason that people have against it, however. Some have concerns that this precedent will open the door for other, stranger arraingements, or for lawsuits against churches that refuse to conduct gay ceremonies.

    For some it is probably simply a gut reaction that "gay" and "marriage" go togther like brussel sprouts and ice cream.

    Whatever the reason, a large majority in the US still oppose it. Possibly that will change in 20 or 40 years. Possibly it won't; predicting trends can be difficult.

    At any rate, demonizing those who oppose the idea of changing the definition of marriage doesn't make your cause more appealing to those who might be undecided.
    As I've mentioned before, this poll really isn't very accurate, since a person can vote multiple times as a guest. I was hoping a mod would update us on if the percentage is the same or changed at all from when CC posted it earlier on this thread, but I'd bet it's about the same as most polls like this go on DP.

    Also, many US polls do not show a big majority opposed to gay marriage. The difference between opposed and for is within 10% for most polls on the issue. That is not a "large majority". And it is steadily shifting more towards the "for" gay marriage side than opposed to it.

    It really doesn't matter the approval rating though, because from the looks of it, this will be most likely decided in the SCOTUS, if Congress doesn't repeal DOMA first. Most likely we will see legalized gay marriage throughout the US in the next 10 years.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    For some it is probably simply a gut reaction that "gay" and "marriage" go togther like brussel sprouts and ice cream.
    Those people have probably never met committed female partners raising children together, then.
    These are commonplace in my city.
    You would never spend time with people like that and think "gay and marriage go together like brussels sprouts and ice cream", because they already are married, regardless of what the law says.
    They simply don't have all the legal rights and protections that hetero couples have, and the ones who stand to suffer the most due to this fact are their children.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    It's been noted in other polls that DP has a disproportionately large number of members that are atheist or agnostic.... yet if you look at this thread's poll, those opposed to gay marriage lead about 60 to 40 percent.

    People from urban areas and those on the coasts disproportionately support gay marriage (not coincidentally, these are the people who have had the most contact with openly gay individuals).

    People from rural areas, small towns, and the mid-west disproportionately oppose gay marriage.
    Not coincidentally, these are the people who have had little or no contact with openly gay individuals, because gay individuals, even if born in these areas, realize that homophobia and anti-gay bigotry will make their lives difficult there, and so they gravitate toward urban areas and the coasts as soon as possible, often before openly acknowledging their sexual orientation.

    My question is, just because there are (very slightly) more ignorant and closed-minded individuals who really don't have any personal experience with gay people, why should they be permitted to enforce their will not only on gay people but on the 40+% of the heterosexual population who have more informed, educated, and progressive beliefs and attitudes?


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