View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1081
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Exactly. That's what we have been trying to explain. There are two forms of marriage, civil and religious/private. Civil marriage is all about the license and making your marriage legally recognized by the state. Religious or private marriage is presenting yourself as a committed couple, claiming to be husband and wife, husband and husband, or wife and wife in everything you do. Most religious/private marriages are also civil marriages, and most civil marriages are also religious/private marriages, but neither needs the other to actually exist. The only time that there is truly a problem is when someone who hasn't or isn't allowed to have a civil marriage tries to claim their status as married on legal forms or for legal matters because they recognize themselves as married because of their religious/private marriage.
    No the state has blurred the line. All ministers, priests etc are officers of the state and allowed to preform marriages.

    Just because someone can say "I am married" does not make it a marriage. Without the recognition of the state it means nothing.

    If this were the case gays could just say they are married and that would be the end of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    As I've mentioned earlier, there are even some cases where two people are viewed as religiously/privately married, by their church or family, but don't consider themselves to actually be married, and are not married civilly.
    And thats fine but again in our society it means literally nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The bottom line is that civil marriage should be completely secular. Religious beliefs should have no say in who can be involved in a civil marriage. Now, the government can limit civil marriages, but those limitations should be fair. The best thing the government could do is to explain exactly why it endorses civil marriages, and make the civil marriage laws fit with that reasoning. As the marriage laws are right now, they discriminate against homosexual couples without a good reason why.
    As long as they call it other than marriage, I would have no problem with your suggestion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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  2. #1082
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Then why do they have a problem with civil unions? You see that is not the issue here. If all the benefits were taken away from married hetero couples it would still be an issue because it is about legitimizing, not benefits.
    Why do people have a problem with calling it "marriage" instead of "civil unions"?

    Is it about deligitimizing?
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  3. #1083
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Why do people have a problem with calling it "marriage" instead of "civil unions"?

    Is it about deligitimizing?
    No. It's about not condoning/legitimizing it as a good choice, not just a "sin" but a sinful "life style."
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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  4. #1084
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No the state has blurred the line. All ministers, priests etc are officers of the state and allowed to preform marriages.

    Just because someone can say "I am married" does not make it a marriage. Without the recognition of the state it means nothing.

    If this were the case gays could just say they are married and that would be the end of it.



    And thats fine but again in our society it means literally nothing.



    As long as they call it other than marriage, I would have no problem with your suggestion.
    I think you are missing the point, and it seems to be on purpose.

    Most religions view a marriage to be a commitment of two people to be together under God. The religions only care about the civil part of marriage to ensure the members of their church are protected legally. Some religions have no concern whatsoever for the civil part of marriage. Some religion or religious persons may be concerned about the civil marriage for their own numbers or some other financial reason, but I have no idea how many would care about that part, especially if the intent is to simply unite two people together in matrimony.

    Marriage existed long before the marriage license. In fact the marriage license came about initially from the church itself. Marriage licenses in the US have been mainly in place to restrict marriages. The main purpose of government marriage licenses was to restrict interracial marriages. The marriage license is not a bad thing, as it allows the state to keep accurate records of who is getting married and to help ensure that people who intend to marry are not already marry (although sometimes it still happens) and allows for legal proof that a couple has actually mutually agreed to the marriage.

    I don't believe civil unions are necessary, unless every civil marriage is instead referred to as a civil union, not just homosexual pairings. To me, though, it would be moot, because couples would still refer to themselves as married, we would have to needlessly change thousands, if not millions, of legal documents that contain the words "married" or something pertaining to marriage, just to appease religious people who believe that they should own the meaning of a word.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #1085
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No. It's about not condoning/legitimizing it as a good choice, not just a "sin" but a sinful "life style."
    There are people who consider being married to someone of a different religion a sinful "lifestyle".

    There are also people who consider being in an open marriage with someone or a married couple who are "swingers" as being in a sinful "lifestyle".

    However, since both of these types of marriages are allowed to occur, wouldn't our government still be condoning sinful "lifestyles"? Most people do not blink an eye in outrage over these. There is no huge outcry of people trying to make more laws against adultery or laws prohibiting people of different religions from getting married. What constitutes a sinful "lifestyle" is different for many people, and it is not the governments job to regulate sin. It is the governments job to regulate actions that are harmful to others and/or their property. As far as marriage goes, it is the government's job to declare why exactly it endorses marriages and make sure that the rules regarding civil marriage are fair to everyone.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I think you are missing the point, and it seems to be on purpose.

    Most religions view a marriage to be a commitment of two people to be together under God. The religions only care about the civil part of marriage to ensure the members of their church are protected legally. Some religions have no concern whatsoever for the civil part of marriage. Some religion or religious persons may be concerned about the civil marriage for their own numbers or some other financial reason, but I have no idea how many would care about that part, especially if the intent is to simply unite two people together in matrimony.
    I am not missing the point. I am going by Christianity. I don't care about the other religions to be honest. Don't know enough about them to care one way or the other.

    I mean 70%+ of this country identifies themselves as Christian,, so we have a vested interest in this society in which we live as we helped build it and maintain it.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Marriage existed long before the marriage license. In fact the marriage license came about initially from the church itself. Marriage licenses in the US have been mainly in place to restrict marriages. The main purpose of government marriage licenses was to restrict interracial marriages. The marriage license is not a bad thing, as it allows the state to keep accurate records of who is getting married and to help ensure that people who intend to marry are not already marry (although sometimes it still happens) and allows for legal proof that a couple has actually mutually agreed to the marriage.
    I already know all this, but thanks just the same for your effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I don't believe civil unions are necessary, unless every civil marriage is instead referred to as a civil union, not just homosexual pairings. To me, though, it would be moot, because couples would still refer to themselves as married, we would have to needlessly change thousands, if not millions, of legal documents that contain the words "married" or something pertaining to marriage, just to appease religious people who believe that they should own the meaning of a word.
    We know the meaning of the word. It was not until the last 20 years gays and progressives tried to change the definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #1087
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are people who consider being married to someone of a different religion a sinful "lifestyle".
    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are also people who consider being in an open marriage with someone or a married couple who are "swingers" as being in a sinful "lifestyle".
    Yes I consider it a sinfull life style as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    However, since both of these types of marriages are allowed to occur, wouldn't our government still be condoning sinful "lifestyles"? Most people do not blink an eye in outrage over these. There is no huge outcry of people trying to make more laws against adultery or laws prohibiting people of different religions from getting married. What constitutes a sinful "lifestyle" is different for many people, and it is not the governments job to regulate sin. It is the governments job to regulate actions that are harmful to others and/or their property. As far as marriage goes, it is the government's job to declare why exactly it endorses marriages and make sure that the rules regarding civil marriage are fair to everyone.
    Just because they are allowed does not make them right.

    You mite as well ask me to support prostitution for legalization. I wont and neither will the majority of Christians, period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #1088
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I am not missing the point. I am going by Christianity. I don't care about the other religions to be honest. Don't know enough about them to care one way or the other.

    I mean 70%+ of this country identifies themselves as Christian,, so we have a vested interest in this society in which we live as we helped build it and maintain it.



    I already know all this, but thanks just the same for your effort.



    We know the meaning of the word. It was not until the last 20 years gays and progressives tried to change the definition.
    You said

    Just because someone can say "I am married" does not make it a marriage. Without the recognition of the state it means nothing.
    I am telling you that not all religions go by what the state recognizes as marriage. Most religious wedding ceremonies will mention that the couple is being brought together under God. The ceremony is more important to many churches than the license for a couple to claim to be married.

    Also, there are gay Christians. Not all Christians believe that being gay is a sin. There are even some Christians who view being gay as a sin, but understand that it is not the government's place to regulate sin.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #1089
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You said
    I am telling you that not all religions go by what the state recognizes as marriage. Most religious wedding ceremonies will mention that the couple is being brought together under God. The ceremony is more important to many churches than the license for a couple to claim to be married.
    Again so what? It changes nothing. Other religions as I said have nothing to do with anything I am saying as I don't know enough about them to consider it.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Also, there are gay Christians. Not all Christians believe that being gay is a sin. There are even some Christians who view being gay as a sin, but understand that it is not the government's place to regulate sin.
    And that is between them and God.

    I will not condone a sin, or repeatedly doing the same sin and acting like God is cool with it. Sorry does not fly. At what point does repeating the same sin over and over become un-Christian? At what point does committing the same sin and not being repentant become un-Christian?

    I mean non-Christan's seem to like pointing out our sins all the time with things like "What would Jesus do" etc. I mean sorry if I don't want to be a hypocrite, so I will stand by everything I have said.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-12-10 at 05:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #1090
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Again so what? It changes nothing. Other religions as I said have nothing to do with anything I am saying as I don't know enough about them to consider it.



    And that is between them and God.

    I will not condone a sin, or repeatedly doing the same sin and acting like God is cool with it. Sorry does not fly. At what point does repeating the same sin over and over become un-Christian? At what point does committing the same sin and not being repentant become un-Christian?

    I mean non-Christan's seem to like pointing out our sins all the time with thing like "What would Jesus do" etc. I mean sorry if I don't want to be a hypocrite, so I will stand by everything I have said.
    So you must have direct conversations with God then?

    You have no true way to know that what is written in the Bible is truly the word of God or delusions from people who lived thousands of years ago. You have no way to truly know if God ensured that "his word" was translated correctly or if man just did the best they could. You have no way to actually know that if what was written in the Bible was actually everything that He wanted to get across or a way for the early churches to better control and/or convert people to Christianity.

    I'm not trying to disrespect your faith or the Bible, but I don't appreciate it when people use what is written in a book from a couple of thousand years ago in a time when many people were trying to gain power and/or influence over the people. Much of the Bible is most likely written in good faith, but that doesn't ensure that it couldn't be biased in some way. Even the teaching of the Bible in modern times is biased.

    I'll give you an example. The story of Sodom is one of the most used ways to "prove" God is against homosexuality. Yet in the story of Lot and Sodom in the Bible, God nor the angels ever said anything about condemning the city because of homosexuality or even "sodomy". God said he was planning to destroy Sodom because it had "turned from him". And the final condemnation came because the townsmen showed up to rape the angels. But, if you have any knowledge of ancient superstitions/beliefs you will know that in that time it was believed that sexual activity with a higher or more powerful being would transfer at least some of those powers to the person committing the act. If the townspeople believed this, they really wouldn't have considered the gender of the angels at all. And it seems to me that God would have been quite ticked off at the fact that the men had just raped/attempted to rape his angels, and really not even have a second thought about the act being a homosexual one. Rape is much worse than homosexual sex, I'd bet. Sodom and Gamorrah had always been taught to me as a lesson against homosexuality, yet looking at the story now, I cannot logically get that from the story in my Bible.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 06-12-10 at 05:25 PM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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