View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1021
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    Example: Islam permits polygyny under certain circumstances. That is ILLEGAL under American CIVIL marriage laws, but it’s permitted under Islamic RELIGIOUS marriage laws. And you’re telling me that a Muslim who has multiple wives under Islamic law (not American civil law) can be arrested because it’s illegal in every state to practice your religious beliefs, including your religious beliefs about marriage???
    U.S. laws concerning polygamy:
    Gregory Brower, the Arizona U.S. Attorney, said during a Senate hearing in 2008-JUL that there is no federal law against polygamy. He commented that the federal government has a number of traditional resources at its disposal to investigate polygamists, including FBI, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, IRS, and other inspectors.
    However, polygamy is illegal in all 50 states under state laws.
    - http://www.religioustolerance.org/polylaw.htm

    According to the laws of all 50 states it would appear so.
    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    That’s blatantly false! And that’s because there is a separation of civil law and religious law in this country (meaning religious law has no bearing on civil law and vice versa). A man may have 4 recognized wives under ISLAMIC marriage law, but he can only have one recognized wife under CIVIL marriage law. That’s the separation right there! How can you deny that again and again and again??
    And like many LDS found out they can be arrested and prosecuted. So no they can’t under US law.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    See my example about polygyny in Islam, which is proof that you CAN indeed have a religious ceremony without a state license first. It’s undeniable.
    US law overrides church law, period. They can say they are married all they like but it will not be considered legal under US law.

    Your point it not lost on me, but it in no way applies to my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    Nope, I’m not missing that point. I completely disagree, in fact. Not like your definition of sinful should be injected into my laws anyway. Do you believe that sexual acts between consenting adults of the same sex should be legal? You would call it sinful, but do you deny that people have the personal freedom to do that in the privacy of their own homes if they are both consenting adults?
    It would be almost impossible to enforce. In most cases it would by one person’s word against another. So it would be a waist of time for the state to get involved on that level.

    This does not mean we as Christians should support or condone it in anyway, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    That’s a fine definition, but it doesn’t apply to states like Massachusetts. There is no legal definition for civil union there because they don’t exist under the law and have never existed under the law.
    That is irrelevant to my argument or the debate at hand. We are talking about a hypothetical Federal Civil Union law vs. legal homosexual marriage. So that definition most definitely applies.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    If they did succeed, would you have a problem adhering to Islamic laws that you did not believe in, such as the rule about veils (pretending that you were a woman)? They are not your religious beliefs, but without a separation of church and state, people can impose their own beliefs on others who do not share them.
    That would not be a problem. As we are free to say no or fight against it. The chances of anything even close to that happening are highly improbable to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    Fine, ignoring international municipalities, there are 5 states plus the District of Columbia that allow same-sex marriage. Additionally, 1 state (California) recognizes same-sex marriages that were performed there legally before Proposition 8 passed. Also, 3 states recognize same-sex marriages that were performed in other states. I know it’s not at the federal level of the U.S. Constitution, but same-sex marriage is a right in several places within the U.S. at a state level.
    So what? 23 states have amended their state constitutions to outright ban same sex marriage. 6 more states have outright banned it. The other 16 have either not made it legal or are working towards constitutional amendments or voting on banning it outright.

    We can play a numbers game all day, but you will lose every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    I don’t need you to tell me what parts of the Bible to read or preach to me. I have my own religious beliefs and I’m quite content with them, thank you.
    YOU asked a question which I was kind enough to answer. Instead of thanks, you give me attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    I really don't understand the "I support civil unions but not the word 'marriage'" argument at all. You think that the word "marriage" would legitimize same-sex relationships, but "civil unions," with the exact same legal rights and social acceptance, somehow doesn't legitimize them? Marriage over civil unions is not primarily about legitimization, (that is simply an eventual by-product in my opinion.) It's about constitutional rights. The Supreme Court has ruled that separate but equal is unconstitutional (and because of that ruling, for example, racial integration has been legitimized, thank God.) So a separate institution from marriage with equal rights (aka civil union) is not constitutional, and frankly it's not necessary.
    So you are welcome, and God bless.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-10-10 at 07:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #1022
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    U.S. laws concerning polygamy:
    Gregory Brower, the Arizona U.S. Attorney, said during a Senate hearing in 2008-JUL that there is no federal law against polygamy. He commented that the federal government has a number of traditional resources at its disposal to investigate polygamists, including FBI, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, IRS, and other inspectors.
    However, polygamy is illegal in all 50 states under state laws.
    - Laws in the U.S. governing polygamy

    According to the laws of all 50 states it would appear so.


    And like many LDS found out they can be arrested and prosecuted. So no they can’t under US law.
    Yeah, polygamy under U.S. marriage law is illegal, since it is defined as one man and one woman. Therefore, it would be illegal for someone to attain marriage licenses that legally marry them to more than one person. But reading over that link you provided as well as the Wikipedia page on Polygamy in the U.S., it is not illegal to hold private religious marriage ceremonies. Those religious polygamous marriages aren’t recognized by the law because it is illegal to be married under the law (civilly) to more than one person in all 50 states, but you can’t be arrested for having a private religious ceremony separate from a civil marriage ceremony. However, arrests can be (and have been) made for related charges such as child abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    US law overrides church law, period. They can say they are married all they like but it will not be considered legal under US law.
    “They can say they are married” but “it will not be considered legal under U.S. law.” Exactly. People are free to say they are married according to their own religious laws, but that does not mean that they are married legally. That’s because there is a separation between civil marriage and religious marriage! The state is not forced to recognize religious marriages (including polygamous ones) and religions are not forced to recognize state marriages (including same-sex ones).


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That would not be a problem. As we are free to say no or fight against it. The chances of anything even close to that happening are highly improbable to say the least.
    No, you would not be free to say no, unless you think that being arrested, jailed, fined, etc. for disobeying the law counts as “free to say no.” It would definitely be a problem for me since the U.S. Constitution calls for a separation of church and state; if I don’t believe in Islamic law, the secular government shouldn’t force me to follow those laws legally. I am free to follow Islamic law in my own life if I wish, but I am not and should not be forced to follow Islamic law in order to avoid legal penalties. Same applies to Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and all other religions that are practiced in this country. And I’m speaking hypothetically so it doesn’t matter the chances of it actually happening. But take into account atheists who see it happening already due to the Christian influence in this secular country. When people use their religion as justification for civil laws, people who do not follow that religion are forced to follow those laws by default. And they have a right to be upset about it, as I would be upset if I were forced to obey secular laws based in the Islamic religious beliefs of an elected representative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So what? 23 states have amended their state constitutions to outright ban same sex marriage. 6 more states have outright banned it. The other 16 have either not made it legal or are working towards constitutional amendments or voting on banning it outright.
    You previously said that you weren’t aware of a right for people of the same sex to marry in the U.S. I was giving you examples of places where that is a legal right. I never claimed that it was a majority of places, I was just informing you that the right does exist in the U.S. in multiple places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    YOU asked a question which I was kind enough to answer. Instead of thanks, you give me attitude.

    So you are welcome, and God bless.
    I apologize if I came off that way. I love to debate and I’ve enjoyed having this discussion with you. It’s certainly made me think about certain points that I haven’t given much thought to in the past.

  3. #1023
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    Yeah, polygamy under U.S. marriage law is illegal, since it is defined as one man and one woman. Therefore, it would be illegal for someone to attain marriage licenses that legally marry them to more than one person. But reading over that link you provided as well as the Wikipedia page on Polygamy in the U.S., it is not illegal to hold private religious marriage ceremonies. Those religious polygamous marriages aren’t recognized by the law because it is illegal to be married under the law (civilly) to more than one person in all 50 states, but you can’t be arrested for having a private religious ceremony separate from a civil marriage ceremony. However, arrests can be (and have been) made for related charges such as child abuse.
    You can have a private religious ceremony but it would mean nothing. The state would not recognize it as legal and so no operating room visits etc.

    It’s not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    “They can say they are married” but “it will not be considered legal under U.S. law.” Exactly. People are free to say they are married according to their own religious laws, but that does not mean that they are married legally. That’s because there is a separation between civil marriage and religious marriage! The state is not forced to recognize religious marriages (including polygamous ones) and religions are not forced to recognize state marriages (including same-sex ones).
    The specifications for obtaining a marriage licence vary between states. In general, however, both parties must appear in person at the time the licence is obtained; be of marriageable age (i.e. over 18 years; lower in some states with the consent of a parent); present proper identification (typically a driver's licence, state ID card, birth certificate or passport; more documentation may be required for those born outside of the United States); and neither must be married to anyone else (proof of spouse's death or divorce may be required, by someone who had been previously married in some states).
    Many states require 1 to 6 days to pass, between the granting of the licence and the marriage ceremony. After the marriage ceremony, both spouses and the officiant sign the marriage licence (some states also require a witness). The officiant or couple then files for a certified copy of the marriage licence and a marriage certificate with the appropriate authority. Some states also have a requirement that a licence be filed within a certain time after its issuance, typically 30 or 60 days, following which a new licence must be obtained.
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_licence

    You cannot have a religious cerimony without the license. If you do it will not be legal, as I said before.
    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    No, you would not be free to say no, unless you think that being arrested, jailed, fined, etc. for disobeying the law counts as “free to say no.” It would definitely be a problem for me since the U.S. Constitution calls for a separation of church and state; if I don’t believe in Islamic law, the secular government shouldn’t force me to follow those laws legally. I am free to follow Islamic law in my own life if I wish, but I am not and should not be forced to follow Islamic law in order to avoid legal penalties. Same applies to Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and all other religions that are practiced in this country. And I’m speaking hypothetically so it doesn’t matter the chances of it actually happening. But take into account atheists who see it happening already due to the Christian influence in this secular country. When people use their religion as justification for civil laws, people who do not follow that religion are forced to follow those laws by default. And they have a right to be upset about it, as I would be upset if I were forced to obey secular laws based in the Islamic religious beliefs of an elected representative.
    You have missed my point completely.

    You are free to vote, protest etc to have any law changed you wish. Separation of church and state means no law shall be based on religious laws. This does not mean people cannot lobby or vote for laws that are similar. I mean murder is against biblical law, and it is also against the law in the US. So because they are similar, laws against murder are unconstitutional? Of course not.

    So we are free to lobby etc for changes and work within the system for that change. If you don’t like it you can take it to court to see if it will withstand the challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    You previously said that you weren’t aware of a right for people of the same sex to marry in the U.S. I was giving you examples of places where that is a legal right. I never claimed that it was a majority of places, I was just informing you that the right does exist in the U.S. in multiple places.
    I was speaking strictly from a Federal perspective. I should have probably been clearer.

    Even so, a state or two passing a law does not make it a right

    Quote Originally Posted by sweEt Mauritius View Post
    I apologize if I came off that way. I love to debate and I’ve enjoyed having this discussion with you. It’s certainly made me think about certain points that I haven’t given much thought to in the past.
    I am seeing new things myself.

    I really appreciate your efforts to remain civil on such a hot button issue.

    God Bless
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-10-10 at 10:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #1024
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    There is no logical reason or non-bigotted reason to try and stop gay marriage. Marriage is not a Christian domain, it is a human domain. How close minded... seriously. pff
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    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
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    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    There is no logical reason or non-bigotted reason to try and stop gay marriage.
    Yes there is, it is wrong. Has nothing to do with bigotry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Marriage is not a Christian domain, it is a human domain.
    No one said it was a “Christian Domain” it is however a religious one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    How close minded... seriously. pff
    Yes! Because there is nothing subjective about people morals.

    Using the definition:

    A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. The correct use of the term requires the elements of intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

    Please point out how any of my statements can have this applied to them?
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-10-10 at 11:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #1026
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes there is, it is wrong. Has nothing to do with bigotry.
    Just like it was wrong to be black 60 years ago.

    No one said it was a “Christian Domain” it is however a religious one.
    Not all religions are against homosexuality.

    Yes! Because there is nothing subjective about people morals.

    Using the definition:

    A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. The correct use of the term requires the elements of intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

    Please point out how any of my statements can have this applied to them?
    Yes, I'm a bigot, towards bigots. I have no patience for people who are racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, or any other form of racism, and discrimination. Plain and simple, you can have your own beliefs, but when it starts affecting other people, in a negative way, then shut up.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes there is, it is wrong. Has nothing to do with bigotry.
    Wrong is an opinion... nothing more. It is an intolerant and irrational opinion.

    No one said it was a “Christian Domain” it is however a religious one.
    It is neither... it is a term.

    marriage   /ˈmærɪdʒ/ Show Spelled[mar-ij] Show IPA
    –noun
    1. a. the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.
    b. a similar institution involving partners of the same gender: gay marriage.
    2. the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: a happy marriage
    Marriage | Define Marriage at Dictionary.com

    It can be used for a religious reason or simply to denote the status of the relationship. Christians and religious types have tried to hijack the term and tried to make it sound holy and religiously important and at the same time tried to make homosexuals appear unholy and sinful. It is an illogical argument. It is based on nothing other than your belief.

    Yes! Because there is nothing subjective about people morals.

    Using the definition:

    A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. The correct use of the term requires the elements of intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

    Please point out how any of my statements can have this applied to them?
    You are showing intolerance towards homosexuals by trying to stop them from being able to get married. How is this not obvious to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Just like it was wrong to be black 60 years ago.
    Who is saying it is wrong to be gay? I am saying I see it as a sin and it has nothing to do with race or anything even close.

    I have nothing against a person who is gay, but I will not condone or support the life style. This does not make anyone a bigot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Not all religions are against homosexuality.
    So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Yes, I'm a bigot, towards bigots. I have no patience for people who are racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, or any other form of racism, and discrimination. Plain and simple, you can have your own beliefs, but when it starts affecting other people, in a negative way, then shut up.
    So instead of addressing my post in any beneficial way, you would rather resort to what amounts to hyperbole.

    Well thanks for input that was worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #1029
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Wrong is an opinion... nothing more. It is an intolerant and irrational opinion.
    In your opinion, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    It is neither... it is a term.

    Marriage | Define Marriage at Dictionary.com

    Actually it would depend on which state constitution you look at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    It can be used for a religious reason or simply to denote the status of the relationship. Christians and religious types have tried to hijack the term and tried to make it sound holy and religiously important and at the same time tried to make homosexuals appear unholy and sinful. It is an illogical argument. It is based on nothing other than your belief.
    This is absolutely not true. In this country it is the PC or leftist crowed that has tried to hijack the meaning. Up until the last what? 20 years it meant one man and one woman, period. Before that it was literally a religious institution until the government decided to get involved.

    So you tell me who hijacked what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You are showing intolerance towards homosexuals by trying to stop them from being able to get married. How is this not obvious to you?
    No I am not. I am showing intolerance for the life style and not the person. No animosity is involved in any way. So no.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-11-10 at 12:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Who is saying it is wrong to be gay? I am saying I see it as a sin and it has nothing to do with race or anything even close.

    I have nothing against a person who is gay, but I will not condone or support the life style. This does not make anyone a bigot.
    You are, and being gay is just like someone's race. You don't get a choice in it, and it is just the way a person is. You say you aren't a bigot, but your post is full of bigoted comments. I would respect your opinion if you supported gay marriage. I know many Christians who think homosexuality is a sin, but support gay marriage because they have the common sense to know that the US is a secular nation. But you want to push your religious beliefs on people who may not share those same beliefs, and just want to move one with their lives.

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