View Poll Results: Are you OK with Puerto Rico becoming the 51st state of the United States?

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  • Yes

    59 65.56%
  • No

    18 20.00%
  • I don't know

    6 6.67%
  • Other

    7 7.78%
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Thread: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

  1. #91
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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Community service for voting privileges.
    Allows people who can't afford to pay taxes to contribute.
    How would that solve the problem, exactly? We're referring to representation, not who votes.

    As an aside, I heavily disagree with voting being a privilege. It is the most fundamental right in a republic.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  2. #92
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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    How would that solve the problem, exactly? We're referring to representation, not who votes.
    I don't think everyone deserves to be represented.
    Citizenship should be a privilege based on contributing to the community, not taking away from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    As an aside, I heavily disagree with voting being a privilege. It is the most fundamental right in a republic.
    I think that is an extremist position to hold.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #93
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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't think everyone deserves to be represented. Citizenship should be a privilege based on contributing to the community, not taking away from it.
    Citizenship is a basic right for the populace. It's that right that separates us from a oligarchic form of government. If people don't vote, the government doesn't belong to them, and the government should belong to everyone.

    I think that is an extremist position to hold.
    Why don't you think it is a right?
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  4. #94
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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Citizenship is a basic right for the populace. It's that right that separates us from a oligarchic form of government. If people don't vote, the government doesn't belong to them, and the government should belong to everyone.
    I think citizenship should be two tiered.
    We do it with people convicted of crimes and I think we should extend it to those who contribute nothing.

    Full citizenship should be based on monthly participation in community service.
    Picking up trash off of the highway, cleaning government buildings, etc.
    I make no distinction about who does it both rich and poor.

    If you choose not to, you don't get to vote or lobby government; you only get the basic protections.

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Why don't you think it is a right?
    It creates class divisions based on income and property.
    It's being used as a dividing tool, instead of a tool of inclusive participation and sustainable community growth.

    Plus it's grossly unethical for people to use government to take from others.
    Again this applies to both rich and poor because they both do it and it implies that one owns it more than the other.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  5. #95
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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think citizenship should be two tiered.
    We do it with people convicted of crimes and I think we should extend it to those who contribute nothing.
    I personally think we should let felons who did their time vote, it'll help give them more investment in the system.

    Full citizenship should be based on monthly participation in community service.
    Picking up trash off of the highway, cleaning government buildings, etc.
    I make no distinction about who does it both rich and poor.
    What will this really change? I fail to see the point of this. Not to mention, not everyone is able to donate time to community service. Some people don't have the health to really do much outside of the house. Others just don't have time. There's been times when I've been working two jobs and going to school. The last thing I'd have time to do is pick up trash. I still knew more about the issues than the general populace though.

    Furthermore, the amount of fraud in this would be overwhelming. It's enough of an issue making sure kids actually did their community service for high school. Monthly service so you can vote every two years? It'd take an entire army just to keep that running smoothly.

    If you choose not to, you don't get to vote or lobby government; you only get the basic protections.
    What are they going to do? Bar you from writing letters to your congressman?

    It creates class divisions based on income and property.
    How does full franchise do this?

    It's being used as a dividing tool, instead of a tool of inclusive participation and sustainable community growth.
    Limiting the people who can vote will only make it more divisive. If you're trying to sustain community growth, there's much better ways to do it.

    Plus it's grossly unethical for people to use government to take from others.
    Again this applies to both rich and poor because they both do it and it implies that one owns it more than the other.
    Everyone has a say in the government, so everyone can have their voices heard on any new taxes or programs. Limiting voting will only make it worse.

    You also haven't explained how any of this makes it a privilege and not a right. You've just listed some gripes about the system, without posting anything of philosophical merit.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  6. #96
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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    I personally think we should let felons who did their time vote, it'll help give them more investment in the system.
    I do too but it's not politically popular and they have their rights denied because of the full franchise and general ignorance of the people.

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    What will this really change? I fail to see the point of this. Not to mention, not everyone is able to donate time to community service. Some people don't have the health to really do much outside of the house. Others just don't have time. There's been times when I've been working two jobs and going to school. The last thing I'd have time to do is pick up trash. I still knew more about the issues than the general populace though.
    I hate to say it but, a few here and there, that can't find the time will be left out.
    The world isn't perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Furthermore, the amount of fraud in this would be overwhelming. It's enough of an issue making sure kids actually did their community service for high school. Monthly service so you can vote every two years? It'd take an entire army just to keep that running smoothly.
    If it were administered by a county or city it wouldn't be difficult to operate.
    They do it now with contract labor and state employees.


    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    What are they going to do? Bar you from writing letters to your congressman?
    No but they don't have to pay any attention to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    How does full franchise do this?
    It creates an incentive to pit income class against income class, business against the people.

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Limiting the people who can vote will only make it more divisive. If you're trying to sustain community growth, there's much better ways to do it.
    I don't see it that way.
    If someone is to lazy to contribute to the community, they don't really have much of an excuse.
    This isn't a liberal vs conservative thing, as both sides do community service projects but not enough of either really help.

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Everyone has a say in the government, so everyone can have their voices heard on any new taxes or programs. Limiting voting will only make it worse.
    That really isn't true.
    Communists, True Socialists, Green Party Types and Libertarians very rarely get a voice.
    They are drowned out by Democrats and Republicans which are mostly corporatists.

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    You also haven't explained how any of this makes it a privilege and not a right. You've just listed some gripes about the system, without posting anything of philosophical merit.
    I don't think it should be a right, I think it should be earned so it can be exercised wisely.

    Do you earn a paycheck if you don't show up to work? No.
    Why should people be able to vote without earning it?
    They haven't done anything that shows their opinion is worth listening to.

    I think that is why voting was limited(originally) on purpose.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 04-30-10 at 10:22 PM.
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  7. #97
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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Lots o' stuff
    Quick side comment here, but Harry, have you read any Robert Heinlein books? Starship troopers (the book is better than the movie) has a system similar to this, except it is based on military service. You might enjoy it.

  8. #98
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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Quick side comment here, but Harry, have you read any Robert Heinlein books? Starship troopers (the book is better than the movie) has a system similar to this, except it is based on military service. You might enjoy it.
    I like the movie.

    Heinlein is an interesting character, from what I understand he was a sort of Libertarian Socialist.
    I have similar leanings although not entirely the same.

    I disagree with military service being a requirement, it could create an ultra nationalist country.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: The 51st State: Puerto Rico

    heres your 51st state- canada, britain, israel, australia, japan

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