Do you think it is ok to enter a country illegally?

stekim · Apr 27, 2010

Redress said:
Apparently the concept of asking questions is over your head. The question mark at the end of the sentence you quoted denotes a question, as in I am asking if that is what you are saying. Let me try it another way, since you diucked the question. Is it life or death, or is it convenience that most illegals are in this country?

Neither.

Just because you don't believe it's a crime does not make it so.

You obviously have reading comprehension issues. On a STRICTLY PERSONAL LEVEL I do not believe it to be crime. The state does, however. So it's illegal. I thought that was pretty clear, but I understand what I'm dealing with now, so I'll be far more careful (or not bother at all).

The real question is why you think it's bad. Is it simply because it's illegal and you think anything illegal is bad by sole virtue of it being illegal? If so that's really lazy, but OK. At least we can end the conversation. If not, what makes hopping the fence bad?

stekim · Apr 27, 2010

rivrrat said:
Well, a million a year are granted. That's hardly a 'few'.

What are the odds of a Mexican getting a resident Visa? Pretty damn slim. 'Nuff said.

And, I said I would only enter a country illegally if my life was in danger. In which case, I would be afforded protection by the US government if I could show that my life was in danger. There would be absolutely no other reason I would enter a country illegally.

That's fair. It's up to you. I cannot very well argue against your own personal morality. Don't want to jump the fance, don't jump the fence. Who gives a crap?

Yeah, they don't steal SS numbers, get paid under the table, get treatment at hospitals that the rest of us have to pay for. Nothing like that at all. :roll:

What do you expect? You won't give them a Visa! They have to get paid under the table (which hurts no one). They have to get a SSN (which may or may not hurt someone). And they can't get health insurance (no hospital should be forced to treat anyone, citizen or not).

Redress · Apr 27, 2010

stekim said:
Neither.

Then what are you saying?

You obviously have reading comprehension issues. On a STRICTLY PERSONAL LEVEL I do not believe it to be crime. The state does, however. So it's illegal. I thought that was pretty clear, but I understand what I'm dealing with now, so I'll be far more careful (or not bother at all).

The real question is why you think it's bad. Is it simply because it's illegal and you think anything illegal is bad by sole virtue of it being illegal? If so that's really lazy, but OK. At least we can end the conversation. If not, what makes hopping the fence bad?

Laws are not on a STRICTLY PERSONAL LEVEL. They are something very important, and made by the representatives of us the people. Laws are important.

Illegals are bad because they, by definition, do not respect the laws of the country they are coming to. Illegals are bad because they are not controlled immigration. I am all in favor of legal immigration, it made this country great. The controls on immigration are there for a reason. One of those reasons is that we simply cannot absorb without social cost all those who want to come here.

Hatuey · Apr 27, 2010

Gipper said:
With regards to Mexicans coming in here, I don't mind as long as they do two things: pay taxes and speak English.

If you're an uneducated American laborer who's whining because some Mexican will do a better job at a fraction of the cost, tough luck on you. Jobs aren't a right, nor are they an entitlement.

That is basically my thoughts on the matter. The scenario where illegals are hiding like rats and trying to avoid becoming tax payers has been debunked over and over again.

More illegal immigrants are rushing to file taxes - The Boston Globe

In Massachusetts, taxpayers here illegally are lining up from Chelsea to the Berkshires, despite the fear of deportation that is permeating the state after a massive raid in New Bedford last year and smaller raids in Boston-area cities and towns. While typical American taxpayers are wary of the Internal Revenue Service, illegal immigrants see the IRS as a friendly agency that could help in their quest for legal residency.

"It's catching on that this is one of the things that you do" as a resident of the United States, said Corinn Williams, executive director of the Community Economic Development Center in New Bedford, which is getting 10 calls a day, double the number it got a year ago, from immigrants who want help filing taxes. "If you're making a case that you want to stay here, without a doubt that's one of the things that the judge is going to look at."

Illegals filing taxes more than ever - Tax Tactics - msnbc.com

RICHMOND, Calif. - Carlos Diaz broke the law when he crossed the border and took a job as an office janitor. But he’s not about to break another by failing to pay his income tax.

“I’ve been talking to other people who’ve done it, and I want to follow the law,” said Diaz, an undocumented immigrant from Guatemala who squirmed in his seat at a neighborhood tax preparer’s office.

IRS seminars, IDs help illegal immigrants pay US taxes / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

These people aren't in a quandary over new tax laws or changes to the code. These are illegal immigrants who up until today have been using false social security numbers to work in the United States. Immigrants like them are flocking in record numbers to IRS offices and seminars such as this one to learn how to become legal US taxpayers.

The IRS has been quietly supporting this activity since 1996 when it created an individual taxpayer identification number designed for anyone who doesn't have a social security number.

This program has gained momentum as immigrants become aware of this option and more fearless about their position in the US workforce.

It is just a lot easier to paint them as criminals or people who do not want to integrate into American society.

Hatuey · Apr 27, 2010

Redress said:
Illegals are bad because they, by definition, do not respect the laws of the country they are coming to. Illegals are bad because they are not controlled immigration. I am all in favor of legal immigration, it made this country great. The controls on immigration are there for a reason. One of those reasons is that we simply cannot absorb without social cost all those who want to come here.

So they are bad because the law says they are bad and not because they are causing any harm to anybody in particular. The 'legal immigration made this country great' line is erroneous. Immigration laws started out to control who came into this country and when they came. For the first 100 years or so of our history they were used to declare who was white - thus allowed to be a citizen - and who wasn't. Nobody was safe. Even Eastern Europeans who by today's standards would be considered 'white' got it pretty bad. Italians, Greeks etc. If anything for the majority of people who came here 'legal immigration' as you word it reflects what made this country so horrible for the first 300 years of its history. The only problem is, that it was a lot harder to deport people 100 years ago than it is today.

stekim · Apr 27, 2010

Redress said:
Then what are you saying?

I'm saying if it's a real struggle to support your family in East Berlin and it's far easier in West Berlin, jumping the wall makes total sense to me. The fact it's illegal means nothing to me because no one is being harmed.

Laws are not on a STRICTLY PERSONAL LEVEL.

I know. But my opinion as to their general worth is entirely personal. They have every right to pass laws and I have every right to agree with them or not.

They are something very important, and made by the representatives of us the people. Laws are important.

Some are. Some are not. In general, however, I agree that "laws are important".

Illegals are bad because they, by definition, do not respect the laws of the country they are coming to.

How do you define that exactly? Is it breaking one law? 100 laws? "Important" laws? I don't know where the cutoff is for "not respecting" laws. I don't know anyone who hasn't broken any laws. Does that mean they don't respect laws in general? And how is that, in and of itself, bad? In other words, let's say I hate every law in America, but have not violated anyone else's life, liberty or property. Am I bad?

Cephus · Apr 27, 2010

obvious Child said:
Okay, so if your people were being targeted for genocide, you would just die rather then illegally enter a neighboring country to escape the genocidal maniacs trying to kill you?

That's basically what you're telling me.

You do realize that a large percentage of refugees across the planet are illegals fleeing from war no? Nations generally don't prosecute or send them back for such reasons.

Most countries have asylum laws, you can cross the border and claim asylum from war and/or persecution and they will accept your presence legally. If so, sure, I can accept someone walking across the border and then immediately claiming asylum, the few minutes they spent there illegally come out in the wash.

However, if they cross the border and don't bother to claim asylum, then I have zero sympathy for them.

rivrrat · Apr 27, 2010

stekim said:
What are the odds of a Mexican getting a resident Visa? Pretty damn slim. 'Nuff said.

A million a year are issued. Why do you claim it's pretty slim?

That's fair. It's up to you. I cannot very well argue against your own personal morality. Don't want to jump the fance, don't jump the fence. Who gives a crap?

The OP. Since that's what the thread is about.

What do you expect? You won't give them a Visa!

Did they apply for one? Over a million of them given per year. I don't want to hear jack ****ing **** about how it's impossible to get one or that 'we won't give them one'. We give a million of them a year. That's over 2700 of them issued PER DAY. How can you say we won't give them one?

They have to get paid under the table (which hurts no one).

Taxes are not taken from that, so yes it does hurt everyone - including THEM

They have to get a SSN (which may or may not hurt someone).

Identity theft hurts someone.

And they can't get health insurance (no hospital should be forced to treat anyone, citizen or not).

They don't need health insurance to get treatment. But instead, they get treatment and don't pay... costing the taxpayers billions of dollars a year.

Hatuey · Apr 27, 2010

Cephus said:
Most countries have asylum laws, you can cross the border and claim asylum from war and/or persecution and they will accept your presence legally. If so, sure, I can accept someone walking across the border and then immediately claiming asylum, the few minutes they spent there illegally come out in the wash.

However, if they cross the border and don't bother to claim asylum, then I have zero sympathy for them.

The problem is asylum laws are very selective. Cubans get to claim it but Haitians don't even though Haiti is far worse off than Cuba in ALL aspects. Salvadorians and Guatemalans got to claim it but Mexicans didn't even though they lived under a one party dictatorship for over 70 years. Our selective granting of asylum based on nationality is a serious issue.

Cephus · Apr 27, 2010

stekim said:
Because those are stealing. Duh. If people are crossing the border to steal then I oppose it.

What else would they be crossing the border hoping to achieve? They'll have to seek jobs to which they are not legally entitled and almost certainly social services to which they are not legally entitled. In essence, they are indeed stealing, just as much as a person sneaking into a movie to which they are not legally entitled (ie. have bought a ticket) to see.

Cephus · Apr 27, 2010

Hatuey said:
The problem is asylum laws are very selective. Cubans get to claim it but Haitians don't even though Haiti is far worse off than Cuba in ALL aspects. Salvadorians and Guatemalans got to claim it but Mexicans didn't even though they lived under a one party dictatorship for over 70 years. Our selective granting of asylum based on nationality is a serious issue.

Then I guess they need to seek out countries where they can be granted asylum, huh? Just because they want it doesn't mean they actually deserve to get it.

Hatuey · Apr 27, 2010

Cephus said:
Then I guess they need to seek out countries where they can be granted asylum, huh? Just because they want it doesn't mean they actually deserve to get it.

Your talk of seeking asylum was redundant to the conversation. Got it.

Redress · Apr 27, 2010

stekim said:
I'm saying if it's a real struggle to support your family in East Berlin and it's far easier in West Berlin, jumping the wall makes total sense to me. The fact it's illegal means nothing to me because no one is being harmed.

Then it is for convenience. The whole "no one being harmed" is clearly false. We have limited jobs in this country, we have limited numbers of teachers and health care professionals. Illegal immigrants use all of those limited resources.

I know. But my opinion as to their general worth is entirely personal. They have every right to pass laws and I have every right to agree with them or not.

But you do not have a right to violate those laws without expecting to be punished. You certainly have no right to expect amnesty for example.

Some are. Some are not. In general, however, I agree that "laws are important".

Hey, we agree on something. Those laws you don't like, you have to power to work to change them. It's much more constructive than just breaking the laws.

How do you define that exactly? Is it breaking one law? 100 laws? "Important" laws? I don't know where the cutoff is for "not respecting" laws. I don't know anyone who hasn't broken any laws. Does that mean they don't respect laws in general? And how is that, in and of itself, bad? In other words, let's say I hate every law in America, but have not violated anyone else's life, liberty or property. Am I bad?

I define it as knowing breaking and continuing to break the law. As an example on a different subject: if you oppose marijuana laws, there is nothing wrong with that. If you get high occasionally, it's not great, not bad. If you continue to get high, knowing it is illegal, you are a criminal. Respect for laws is important. Laws are the glue that holds society together. To answer your last question: if you break all those laws you disagree with, yes. You have shown a disregard for the society you live in.

stekim · Apr 27, 2010

rivrrat said:
A million a year are issued. Why do you claim it's pretty slim?

To work in America you need a WORK VISA. 80% of all Visas are visitor visas. You cannot work on that visa, you can merely get in.

Thousands of Mexicans Wait Patiently for US Visa

Last year, the State Department's 10 offices in Mexico issued 941,581 visas, more than twice as many as in any other country. Nearly 80 percent were temporary-visitor visas, issued to people who want to take a business trip, visit family, see the sights. They are good for 10 years.

Temporary workers accounted for an additional 13 percent of visas. Those visas must be renewed more frequently.

To be granted a visitor's visa, the most common type, applicants must prove they will return to Mexico. So applicants come armed with documents: bank statements, home deeds, car titles, pay stubs - anything to prove they have no intention of staying in the United States.

Getting a work visa is even trickier: Applicants must have a job offer and be sponsored by an employer, and the number of visas allowed annually for unskilled laborers is usually used up within a few months.

Gipper · Apr 27, 2010

redress said:
I define it as knowing breaking and continuing to break the law. As an example on a different subject: if you oppose marijuana laws, there is nothing wrong with that. If you get high occasionally, it's not great, not bad. If you continue to get high, knowing it is illegal, you are a criminal. Respect for laws is important. Laws are the glue that holds society together. To answer your last question: if you break all those laws you disagree with, yes. You have shown a disregard for the society you live in.

I suggest you never be in the same car as I am when it's 3am and I'm at a 4-way stop in the country.

stekim · Apr 27, 2010

Redress said:
Then it is for convenience.

Well, you simply have an odd definition of convenience. I don't consider moving from third cesspools to be a "convenience". And you wouldn't either.

The whole "no one being harmed" is clearly false. We have limited jobs in this country, we have limited numbers of teachers and health care professionals. Illegal immigrants use all of those limited resources.

You realize you just claimed that they create jobs, right? If they emigrate we need more teachers and more health care providers. We have 10% unemployment. You just helped the problem.

But you do not have a right to violate those laws without expecting to be punished. You certainly have no right to expect amnesty for example.

Never said I did.

Hey, we agree on something. Those laws you don't like, you have to power to work to change them. It's much more constructive than just breaking the laws.

I agree. In practice, however, I tend to do both at the same time!

To answer your last question: if you break all those laws you disagree with, yes. You have shown a disregard for the society you live in.

Actually, we just disagree on what "disregard for society" is. To me it's as simple as violating the life, liberty or property of an innocent person. If you refrain from doing that I think you are doing society a pretty good favor regardless of whether you broke some laws. Likewise, you can follow the law and cause real harm to people (eh, Wall Street).

rivrrat · Apr 27, 2010

stekim said:
To work in America you need a WORK VISA. 80% of all Visas are visitor visas. You cannot work on that visa, you can merely get in.

Thousands of Mexicans Wait Patiently for US Visa

The million a year I mentioned are the number of legal immigrants granted legal status. The temp visas you are talking about are non-immigrant visas.

And, the restriction on the numbers allowed in are there for a reason. People who don't respect that only hurt the country and the people in it. Not to mention spit in the face of the millions of LEGAL immigrants that come here doing it the right way.

Gipper · Apr 27, 2010

rivrrat said:
And, the restriction on the numbers allowed in are there for a reason. People who don't respect that only hurt the country and the people in it. Not to mention spit in the face of the millions of LEGAL immigrants that come here doing it the right way.

I don't think they view it that way. Were it so, you could just call the INS to herd up all the people at a random immigrant/protest rally in Arizona since the declaration of this bill. I'd be willing to bet money that a good chunk, if not most, of the people demonstrating are Mexicans that are here legally. Those Latino people are known for intense amounts of pride, and they'd stand by their brethren more than their desire to give you a cut-rate discount on your landscaping needs.

They don't see it as hurting their people who are here legally. They see it as a hurdle blocking the eventual takeover of the southwestern United States back under the flag of the red, white, and green.

Skateguy · Apr 27, 2010

stekim said:
Because those are stealing. Duh. If people are crossing the border to steal then I oppose it.

Since everything they get here, is not theirs, from a free education, to free hospitalization, then that is stealing.
And that includes the cost of incarceration when they steal my big screen TV.

rivrrat · Apr 27, 2010

Gipper said:
I don't think they view it that way. Were it so, you could just call the INS to herd up all the people at a random immigrant/protest rally in Arizona since the declaration of this bill. I'd be willing to bet money that a good chunk, if not most, of the people demonstrating are Mexicans that are here legally. Those Latino people are known for intense amounts of pride, and they'd stand by their brethren more than their desire to give you a cut-rate discount on your landscaping needs.

They don't see it as hurting their people who are here legally. They see it as a hurdle blocking the eventual takeover of the southwestern United States back under the flag of the red, white, and green.

Not all immigrants are hispanic. (though the majority are)

Gipper · Apr 27, 2010

Let's operate under the assumption that, for argument's sake, they are. Nobody ever talks about a wall on our northern border.

Skateguy · Apr 27, 2010

rivrrat said:
Not all immigrants are hispanic. (though the majority are)

Very good Point Rivrrat. ---the open Southern Border is crossed by a whole host of unsavory customers from all over the World. People try to make it an anti Mexican thing. It is not. I lock my back door at night, so should Our Country.

stekim · Apr 27, 2010

Skateguy said:
Since everything they get here, is not theirs, from a free education, to free hospitalization, then that is stealing.
And that includes the cost of incarceration when they steal my big screen TV.

So do you think Americans are entitled to all the "free" stuff they want?

disneydude · Apr 27, 2010

Skateguy said:
Very good Point Rivrrat. ---the open Southern Border is crossed by a whole host of unsavory customers from all over the World. People try to make it an anti Mexican thing. It is not. I lock my back door at night, so should Our Country.

I live in Los Angeles and never lock any of my doors. In fact, my backdoor is open pretty much 24 hours a day, so that my dogs can go in and out.

I've lived in South Central, Redondo Beach, West Hollywood and now near Burbank. Never locked my doors...and have never had a problem.

Cephus · Apr 27, 2010

Hatuey said:
Your talk of seeking asylum was redundant to the conversation. Got it.

Hardly. We're talking about people who walk illegally into a country seeking help. That's all well and good, but nobody is actually obligated to help them if they don't want to. It is entirely at the discretion of the country in question whether they want to grant asylum or turn the illegals back across the border. Then the illegals are welcome to go ask someone else for asylum if they want.

You act like these people are entitled to it. They're not. It's a gift, not a requirement.

Do you think it is ok to enter a country illegally?

Do you think it is ok to enter a country illegally?

Yes

No

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