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Does hard work always lead to a higher income

Does hard work always lead to a higher income?

  • yes

    Votes: 3 4.2%

  • no

    Votes: 68 95.8%
  • Total voters
    71
Goshin said:
Thank you and Megaprogman for addressing this. I was thinking about starting a new thread on this very issue a couple days ago.

We need to distinguish between the "Working Poor", who typically work very hard indeed, and the Welfare Class, who often ARE Lazy.

There is a world of difference between the two. I've spent a lot of time around both types of people, and I've been "working class poor" during many periods of my life.

Working class poor people generally work very hard indeed. Typically their lack of any great income is due to a lack of higher education or other marketable skills that would lead to higher income. Often their background is such that they are unable to present themselves with a "middle-class social mannerism" to a prospective employer, and that does make a difference in whether you can get a chance at a job in say, sales, instead of working on the loading dock.

Some have the capacity to do better-paying jobs, but there are circumstances in their life that hold them back. Sales is an avenue where a person of modest education but good social skills and some brains can make good money; a lot of people find sales jobs, however, to be stressful; income is often commission-based and variables beyond your control can really make that a roller-coaster ride. Others have limitations imposed by family obligations, such as a need to stay close to home for the sake of one or more family members (no traveling jobs).

Welfare Poor, that's another kettle of fish entirely. I know these folks pretty well too; I have relatives who qualify. Yes, there are a few who are on welfare because of circumstances largely beyond their control; but the majority are on welfare as a direct result of very bad choices they made in life, or (here we go) yes, sheer laziness.

I'll bet that half the thieves and drug dealers I've known were also on the welfare roll, or else had their live-in woman on welfare.

Not to say they're all bad people, some of them are decent folk overall. Some of them are mentally below average and really do have a hard time keeping a job and keeping their finances halfway straight. Some have actual mental problems that they were born with and are thus not their fault.

All in all though, a large number of them are on welfare because they're either lazy, druggies, drunks, or otherwise have made a lot of bad choices and continue to make bad choices in life.

The "Working Poor" have my respect and sympathy.

Most of the Welfare Poor do not.

G.
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The, the welfare class are in need of sympathy, understanding, compassion,respect, just as all others are....even more so...
Many of the welfare receivers are simply not very bright, cannot even push a broom....., which is a thing of the past anyway...
This "lazy" thing - I do not buy.
The problem is much more complex, wish I had an answer..
 
Lazy or not is irrelevant in the primary argument.
The primary argument has nothing to do with how hard people work, it has to do with wealth redistribution.

Use your own example.
megaprogman said:
However, at the textile mill I work at, I know plenty of people who work hard for the sake of working hard and never aspire to even being a supervisor. Many only make 10 or 11 an hour, but they tend to be happy people.
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So these textile mill workers, who are:
1. happy to work 10-11 hours at their wage level
2. choose not to become supervisors which carries higher pay

So they didn't choose to work for more, according to you. So why would the person who does choose to be supervisor, have to give some of their money to the rest of the people who chose not to take on a similar supervisor position? Isn't that the real question?

Laziness and income are then entirely irrelevant. No one would give a crap what the correlation was, if you were not redistributing wealth in the first place, then everyone is presumably choosing to do what makes them happy....be it a care-free minimum wage job, or a doctor.
 
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1984 said:
Engineering, medicine, law, etc. are far harder than any job which pays crap.
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"Harder"? In what way, mentally as compared to physically? You think practicing law/medicine/engineering is "harder" than shoveling dirt?
 
megaprogman said:
Does hard work always lead to a higher income?

The reason I ask this is that I see a lot of people assuming that people with a low income are lazy.
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If you're on welfare or are an elected official, you don't have to work. Just vote yourself a salary.
 
NoJingoLingo said:
"Harder"? In what way, mentally as compared to physically? You think practicing law/medicine/engineering is "harder" than shoveling dirt?
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Yes, that's a very important point.

I've done manual labor, and I've done cushy office work, and I don't know how the guys who do the manual labor every day keep at it.
 
earthworm said:
Assume
ass*u*me
Farmers are very hard workers, they must be.
The Amish are prime examples.
But to those who "think" or ass*u*me that those poor people that they see are lazy....... I'd take for neighbors any day the poor people over the holier than thou snobs....
Laziness strikes all , I wish I knew why..:confused:
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Looks to me that you're doing the assuming. No one said poor people are lazy, the OP only made an assumption that some think that. :lol:
 
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The lack of hard work will very likely lead to a low income.....
 
UtahBill said:
The lack of hard work will very likely lead to a low income.....
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Depends on where you start. If you're born into money, lack of hard work will probably have no effect. If you're born into regular society, then yes you're dooming yourself to low income.
 
For the record I mostly agree with Dig's comment.

in regards to the always:

megaprogman said:
I think the word always is an important piece of this question. If the assumption is that higher income people work harder than lower income people than hard work should lead to a higher income.
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megaprogman said:
That doesn't address the question, which is about hard work. In a sense what I am really asking is that is everyone that is poor in that situation because they are lazy?
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See, this is a setup and pure and simple trap by you mega.

You are taking one thing which is NOT stated as an "always" case by most people (You don't find many republicans saying those who are poor are ALWAYS also lazy or ALWAYS beause they're lazy) and then trying to counter it by putting forth a completely different situation by inserting the ALWAYS.

The argument is not that ANYONE who is poor has to be so because they're lazy. The argument is there is oppertunity and potential for anyone to do well and improve their lot in life if they make an effort to do so in their lives.

Now sometimes that effort may be difficult, not in just a physical manner but in regards to comfort, sacrifice, etc.

Sometimes the oppertunties are made much more difficult and maybe even closer to impossible because someone repeatedly passed on them throughout life (Such as someone who didn't take primary education seriously, didn't bother going to secondary education, didn't take advantage of any work place training programs, and then is 40 and realizes "I need to do more with my life then being a menial retail clerk" or something of the like).

Sometimes yes, bad luck can strike or unfortunante circumstances can befall you. That can cut both ways though.

But ultimately everyone has the ability in some way, shape, or form to improve themselves and strive for something better. Someone who is just working for a bit over minimum wage at McDonalds could still "work hard" at that job and it may only get him miniscule wages over the time. But that's because he's choosing to focus his hard work there rather than potentially make some sacrifices or some extreme efforts to use that hard work and focus at bettering himself to give him an oppertunity to get a better job.

Just "working hard" as a generic term that could applied to anything does not garauntee you nor mean you should get any great advancement in life. Its also not generally the conservative argument.

You're beating up on a strawman with a dishonest, transparent, hacky poll question trying to "disprove" a notion by asking a question that doesn't correlate to it in the slightest.

Do people who work hard ALWAYS improve their lot in life? No. Do people who work hard at improving their lot in life often have a chance to improve their life? Yes.

Those who resign themselves to mediocrity or poverty, even if they work really really hard at being mediocre or at their job keeping them in poverty, are going to remain in that state. But nothing is stopping them from refusing to accept that as their fate and focusing their efforts and will towards improving themselves rather than simply working hard at what they are.
 
misterman said:
Yes, that's a very important point.

I've done manual labor, and I've done cushy office work, and I don't know how the guys who do the manual labor every day keep at it.
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Harder when talking in the sense of jobs is a multifaceted word.

Sure, physicality can play into it. One could say the ditch digger has a harder job than the janitor but the pro-football player has the harder job than either because the physical demands are so great.

Physicality. Hours. Time it takes to even learn the skills for the job. The difficulty, possibly in time/money/intelligence/experience, to get into the position. The stress said position places upon you. The intelligence needed. The risk associated with it both financially and physically.

All these things play into it.

Physically, a ditch digger on any particular day is working far harder than a brain surgeon.

When comparing the two however in a more overall view, the Brain Surgeon sacrifices likely 10 years of his life to study and score high enough to continue his education, all the while putting himself in large amount of debt. To then have to do a job that daily requires him to recall multitude of in depth and high level information learned over multiple years in which peoples lives can literally, directly, hang in very balance of his hands. To have dealt with years of extremely long hours, little sleep, and the knowledge that any mistake could potentially cost him not just his job but his financial security. With all that, yeah, I could say that a Brain Surgeon that is doing his job as exemplary as a Ditch Digger is doing his job is works harder than said ditch digger in an overall sense. Not physically, but over all definitely.
 
misterman said:
Yes, that's a very important point.
I've done manual labor, and I've done cushy office work, and I don't know how the guys who do the manual labor every day keep at it.
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If I hand you a shovel, you are saying you can't dig a hole?
Hand you a scalpel, can you do bypass surgery?

Neither you nor Jingo have an important point. You're not slow, how could you even float that idea?
 
UtahBill said:
The lack of hard work will very likely lead to a low income.....
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Not necessarily. Some people never work a day in their life and do just fine. They are born into money or marry into it.
 
Mach said:
If I hand you a shovel, you are saying you can't dig a hole?
Hand you a scalpel, can you do bypass surgery?

Neither you nor Jingo have an important point. You're not slow, how could you even float that idea?
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This is about the meaning of the word "hard" in this context. Our point is perfectly sensible. Don't get all worked up about it, okay?
 
Ikari said:
Depends on where you start. If you're born into money, lack of hard work will probably have no effect. If you're born into regular society, then yes you're dooming yourself to low income.
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Money you are born into is not the kind of income being considered here, especially since most of us here weren't born into wealth.....
 
Zyphlin said:
Harder when talking in the sense of jobs is a multifaceted word.

Sure, physicality can play into it. One could say the ditch digger has a harder job than the janitor but the pro-football player has the harder job than either because the physical demands are so great.

Physicality. Hours. Time it takes to even learn the skills for the job. The difficulty, possibly in time/money/intelligence/experience, to get into the position. The stress said position places upon you. The intelligence needed. The risk associated with it both financially and physically.

All these things play into it.

Physically, a ditch digger on any particular day is working far harder than a brain surgeon.

When comparing the two however in a more overall view, the Brain Surgeon sacrifices likely 10 years of his life to study and score high enough to continue his education, all the while putting himself in large amount of debt.
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While the ditch digger grinds out physical labor for those 10 years all the while hoping to stay healthy enough to cover his bills.

To then have to do a job that daily requires him to recall multitude of in depth and high level information learned over multiple years in which peoples lives can literally, directly, hang in very balance of his hands.
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Sounds like worship to me. But the surgeon is just an academic with no real world working experience running a company so he must not be worth such praise.
To have dealt with years of extremely long hours, little sleep, and the knowledge that any mistake could potentially cost him not just his job but his financial security.
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Sounds like you are talking about the ditch digger but I can't be sure...

With all that, yeah, I could say that a Brain Surgeon that is doing his job as exemplary as a Ditch Digger is doing his job is works harder than said ditch digger in an overall sense. Not physically, but over all definitely.
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I would disagree based on my rebuttals. :2wave:
 
MyOwnDrum said:
Anyone can clean up crap, it takes absolutely no skill. You don't have to go to school, or even know how to read to clean up crap.

Some manual labor is highly skilled. I used to work in a cabinet shop before I got into the medical field, and I did quite well, and was highly skilled and worth every dollar I was paid because of my skills.

If you want to make a living wage, you have to learn a trade, not just get a job that anyone can do.
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Any and all jobs require a skill and not everybody can do just any job. You are incorrect in saying anyone can clean up crap.

You have to be able to read and understand directions if you wish to be able to do most jobs in a safe manner. This stuff about anybody can do any certain job is crap and all people should be paid well for busting their ass and that does include those that some folks seem to look down their snotty noses at:roll:
 
TurtleDude said:
what is a wage? It is a payment for a commodity that companies need-labor. A wage should be high enough to obtain the quantity and quality of the labor it needs. This living wage crap is just that. If one can hire a toilet cleaner for 2 dollars an hour that is what a company should pay for toilet cleaners. If someone cannot live on that wage, they should find a line of work that commands a salary they can live on
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Just because you can do something does not make it right. Biz owners should value their workers, pay em a decent wage and this will benefit them in long run with lower turn over rates and things like that. If a company cannot pay someone a living wage? They need to close down. Period.
 
1984 said:
Engineering, medicine, law, etc. are far harder than any job which pays crap.
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That is a matter of opinion.
 
NoJingoLingo said:
"Harder"? In what way, mentally as compared to physically? You think practicing law/medicine/engineering is "harder" than shoveling dirt?
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Yeah. I would love to see some of these white collar hard workers have to just "TRY" their hand at ditch digging, road pavenment, cleaning a port a potty on hot day, etc. :2razz:
 
misterman said:
Yes, that's a very important point.

I've done manual labor, and I've done cushy office work, and I don't know how the guys who do the manual labor every day keep at it.
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I have done both too and would much rather sit on my ass pushing a pencil in an office than be out in the hot Carolina Sun for up to 12 hours sweating my so called fat ass off:roll:
 
Zyphlin said:
Harder when talking in the sense of jobs is a multifaceted word.

Sure, physicality can play into it. One could say the ditch digger has a harder job than the janitor but the pro-football player has the harder job than either because the physical demands are so great.

Physicality. Hours. Time it takes to even learn the skills for the job. The difficulty, possibly in time/money/intelligence/experience, to get into the position. The stress said position places upon you. The intelligence needed. The risk associated with it both financially and physically.

All these things play into it.

Physically, a ditch digger on any particular day is working far harder than a brain surgeon.

When comparing the two however in a more overall view, the Brain Surgeon sacrifices likely 10 years of his life to study and score high enough to continue his education, all the while putting himself in large amount of debt. To then have to do a job that daily requires him to recall multitude of in depth and high level information learned over multiple years in which peoples lives can literally, directly, hang in very balance of his hands. To have dealt with years of extremely long hours, little sleep, and the knowledge that any mistake could potentially cost him not just his job but his financial security. With all that, yeah, I could say that a Brain Surgeon that is doing his job as exemplary as a Ditch Digger is doing his job is works harder than said ditch digger in an overall sense. Not physically, but over all definitely.
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I would go into a long rant about how the ditch digger has much more stress than the Brain Surgeon and how some people view people in a medical position as Gods but it would be pointless.

The fact of the matter is that ditchdigger has as much worth and works as hard as that Brain Surgeon on a daily basis and their pay should reflect that.
 
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