View Poll Results: Constellation or Climate research?

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  • Constellation

    18 60.00%
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Thread: Constellation or Climate Research?

  1. #51
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I'm not sure why I try to post on these global warming threads. Nothing that comes back as a response seems to resemble in the slightest what I've actually posted.
    A convenient excuse for someone who has no response to any of the questions I posed.

    Carry on, then. Pretend that there is no climate change. Pretend that I've posted that climate change is an impending disaster, that we must take action now. Pretend that Limbaugh and Hannity are more credible than NASA and NOAA. pretend what you like. Please don't respond to my posts until you actually read them first.
    What the hell are you talking about!? Sheesh!

    I never said "climate change" wasn't real. I asked you to define "climate change" and explain why it should concern me. Of course, you can probably do neither, which is why you have chosen to make inane references to Limbaugh and Hannity, two people whose opinions me nothing to me.

    My information is simple fact and logic; I would invite you to utilize these tools.

  2. #52
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Back to the benefits of climate research. First, it could actually help to determine if we are affecting the rate at which global warming is occurring. Not really the most important aspect in my opinion, but certainly one of them. Second, it could help us to determine a good balance of activities to get the most out of what goes into and comes out of our atmosphere. We need O2, plants need CO2. I think most people would prefer that the plants are putting out at least enough O2 in the air we breathe so we won't suffocate. But if we are putting more CO2 into the atmosphere than the plant life can handle, then we are going to deplete our own O2 supplies. Considering how much we are destroying the plant life of both the oceans and the land, it might be a good idea to slow down how much excess, unnecessary CO2 we are putting in the atmosphere. Also, climate research can help us better determine when some natural, cyclic occurrences most likely may occur and/or what causes them to occur so that we can look for signs that they are about to happen. This may help us to better plan for such occurrences. Doing climate research can also help us to predict what kind of conditions to expect during certain natural weather cycles. Especially when we haven't had experience with them in recent history or even in human history, but they have occurred before in Earth's history.

    You cannot just discount the benefits of all climate research because you disapprove of AGW research, no more than someone could discount the benefits of all space research just because they don't approve of constellation research simply because it has no obviously, immediate benefit to us.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    All this research is pretty pointless. We have no capacity to alter the climate in our favor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Honestly, has anyone really thought about what kind of massive systems we're talking about, when we're talking about humans affecting climate change? (in either a positive or negative sense).

    The atmosphere has a mass of about five quintillion (5 × 1018 or 5,000,000,000,000,000,000) kg, three quarters of which is within about 11 km (6.8 mi; 36,000 ft) of the surface.
    Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Best I can figure, that's about five thousand TRILLION tons.

    The total mass of humanity:
    7 billion humans at 70kg each = 490 billion kg. That's 490 million tons, or 0.000000098 of the mass of the atmosphere.

    If we assume that each human comes along with a ton of mass of industrial product (share of housing, transporation, manufacturing, etc...bearing in mind that much of the world doesn't own much, so one ton is probably about avg), that's another 7 billion tons... or 0.0000014, for a whopping total of all humanity and all humanity's works equalling 0.000001498 of the mass of the atmosphere.

    Okay this is just an estimate, but I'll bet it is within an order of magnitude of being correct. WE ARE TINY compared to the Earth.

    For all of humanity's combined works to equal 1% of the mass of the atmosphere, we'd have to expand our production capacity about 10,000 fold...yes that's ten thousand fold.

    We aren't even dust in the wind.

    This is the main reason I am skeptical of AGW.

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  4. #54
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Back to the benefits of climate research. First, it could actually help to determine if we are affecting the rate at which global warming is occurring. Not really the most important aspect in my opinion, but certainly one of them. Second, it could help us to determine a good balance of activities to get the most out of what goes into and comes out of our atmosphere. We need O2, plants need CO2. I think most people would prefer that the plants are putting out at least enough O2 in the air we breathe so we won't suffocate. But if we are putting more CO2 into the atmosphere than the plant life can handle, then we are going to deplete our own O2 supplies. Considering how much we are destroying the plant life of both the oceans and the land, it might be a good idea to slow down how much excess, unnecessary CO2 we are putting in the atmosphere. Also, climate research can help us better determine when some natural, cyclic occurrences most likely may occur and/or what causes them to occur so that we can look for signs that they are about to happen. This may help us to better plan for such occurrences. Doing climate research can also help us to predict what kind of conditions to expect during certain natural weather cycles. Especially when we haven't had experience with them in recent history or even in human history, but they have occurred before in Earth's history.

    You cannot just discount the benefits of all climate research because you disapprove of AGW research, no more than someone could discount the benefits of all space research just because they don't approve of constellation research simply because it has no obviously, immediate benefit to us.
    Of course your first mistake is to assume that there is any warming in the first place.

    Your second mistake is to assume that what we have experienced in the last 100 years is a "norm" for this planet.

    Now answer this simple question…… why would it be bad if we could once again grow Wheat in Greenland?
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    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

  5. #55
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    All this research is pretty pointless. We have no capacity to alter the climate in our favor.
    It's not pointless at all..... if your real goal is just to be able to scare people so they won't bitch when you tax them out of all but a very meager existence…. Then it makes perfect sense.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

  6. #56
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    A convenient excuse for someone who has no response to any of the questions I posed.



    What the hell are you talking about!? Sheesh!

    I never said "climate change" wasn't real. I asked you to define "climate change" and explain why it should concern me. Of course, you can probably do neither, which is why you have chosen to make inane references to Limbaugh and Hannity, two people whose opinions me nothing to me.

    My information is simple fact and logic; I would invite you to utilize these tools.
    OK, so I'm a glutton for punishment. Let's see if anyone cares what I'm about to write, or is simply going to post yet another non response.

    Here's the post you're referring to, along with my responses:


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    OK, that is where my analogy breaks down. A train hitting a car is a pretty negative thing, particularly with people inside it.

    On the other hand, if the car is a junker and the people do get out, then it isn't so bad.

    We don't know whether global climate change will be a disaster. It may be in some places, may actually help others. The problem is, we really don't know.

    It would be better if we would find out what is coming and quit arguing over what is already known, but, of course, we won't.
    Your response:
    What is there to figure out? Also, "anything could happen" is not a rational basis for policy.
    Well, the words "anything could happen" isn't included in my post. I'm not sure just where you got it. As for what is there to figure out, once again, it is the likely effects of global climate change we should be trying to figure out.



    I mean, a meteorite COULD come blazing through your roof and into your skull, we just don't know!!! Methinks your roof needs some lead plating in order to preempt such an eventuality. Just give me $10,000 and I'll make sure this disaster never befalls you!
    Now, there's a non sequiter if I've ever read one, and has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've posted on this thread at all, period.

    Quote:
    So, it really doesn't matter. Global climate change is real, that much is established.
    Define "global climate change" and explain why we should care.
    OK, so there's the question I didn't answer. Here goes:

    Global climate change is the changes in local climate all over the globe caused by the rise in average temperature of the Earth. Some parts of the Earth are getting colder, others warmer, some wetter, others drier, as a result of climate change.

    OK, so come back with a response to climate change being a disaster once again. That will convince me beyond any doubt that you haven't read a word I've posted.
    Quote:
    It is likely that human activities are accelerating it, that much is established.
    Your language suggests that you are a scientific layperson. Something that is "established" as being "likely" means absolutely nothing. Moreover, no such thing has been established; I defy you to prove otherwise.
    Yes, I am a scientific layperson, just as I suspect you are. Yes, it has been established that it is probable that human activities are accelerating climate change. It has just about been proven beyond a doubt, but there is still some room for debate on that point. It really doesn't matter one way or the other anyway.

    Quote:
    It is going to have some negative impacts in come places, that much is also established.
    Yea, like those melting glaciers in the Himalayas!? That was also "established".
    Like these melting glaciers in the Himalayas? No, not really. That the glaciers re melting there has been established, and photographed. I mean more like where the effects are still unknown, like here in California for example. What is global warming going to do to the snowpack on which agriculture in the valley depends? Are we going to get less snow, but more rain? Will there be less precipitation in total? Could we actually get more precip? No one knows. We do know that California produces a significant portion of the fruit and nut crops used in the US and exported to other countries.

    We don't know what global warming is going to do to agriculture here. Wouldn't it be better if we did?

    Quote:
    Will it be a disaster? What will the effects be? Can we actually mitigate it? None of that is established. Were human beings wiser, we would put our energy into finding those things out, but, being foolish, we won't.

    So, what does it matter?
    You sound like the McDonald's kid..."It could happen!"
    No, I sound more like an adult saying, "Let's find out what is likely to happen instead of yammering on about disasters and conspiracies. Let's use science, logic, and fact instead of trying to deny it and cling to disproved notions.

    Or not. As I keep saying, we (humans ) are not rational enough to study a phenomenon like global climate change and prepare for it. We'd much rather debate about whether a looming disaster is coming, or whether the world's scientists are just wrong.

    Neither side of that debate is correct.
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  7. #57
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Of course your first mistake is to assume that there is any warming in the first place.

    Your second mistake is to assume that what we have experienced in the last 100 years is a "norm" for this planet.

    Now answer this simple question…… why would it be bad if we could once again grow Wheat in Greenland?
    Most evidence/research shows that the Earth is globally warming, even that outside of AGW.

    Global Warming Frequently Asked Questions

    I can find several other sites to support that global warming is happening, whether do to a normal cycle or actually do to human activities, with just
    [GOOGLE]global warming[/GOOGLE]

    As for your second point, what? I don't know if what we are experiencing, climate or weather related, is normal or not. It isn't too big of a leap to believe that it could be natural, just as for me it really isn't too big a leap to believe that we could be affecting the Earth's climate. I don't know either way. I do know that there are natural events that occur on this Earth and generally happen in much longer of an expanse of time than we live on this Earth. At one of the National Parks in Wyoming, they were doing research on evidence from fossils and soil samples, that the area alternates between flooded with fresh water, dry, and flooded with salt water, then dry again. The evidence shows that this has occurred several times throughout the Earth's history, but has never actually been recorded/reported by humans. I heard this at the park and saw some of the evidence. But whether the weather we are currently experiencing is a part of a natural, normal cycle, is being significantly affected by human activities, but still would have occurred in the future or if what we are seeing is completely being caused by humans is actually not my main point in any of this. I just believe that almost all of the environmental efforts/legislation to "go green" is good for the overall health of the planet anyway.

    I'm not saying it is bad, if it happens naturally. I just don't think that we should be forcing the planet to accept so much damage from us just because we can. And, taking positive steps to reduce how much we mess up the planet, and to in fact, try to reverse some of the pollution/damage we have already caused is a good thing for us right now, and for future generations.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Most evidence/research shows that the Earth is globally warming, even that outside of AGW.

    Global Warming Frequently Asked Questions

    I can find several other sites to support that global warming is happening, whether do to a normal cycle or actually do to human activities, with just
    [GOOGLE]global warming[/GOOGLE]

    As for your second point, what? I don't know if what we are experiencing, climate or weather related, is normal or not. It isn't too big of a leap to believe that it could be natural, just as for me it really isn't too big a leap to believe that we could be affecting the Earth's climate. I don't know either way. I do know that there are natural events that occur on this Earth and generally happen in much longer of an expanse of time than we live on this Earth. At one of the National Parks in Wyoming, they were doing research on evidence from fossils and soil samples, that the area alternates between flooded with fresh water, dry, and flooded with salt water, then dry again. The evidence shows that this has occurred several times throughout the Earth's history, but has never actually been recorded/reported by humans. I heard this at the park and saw some of the evidence. But whether the weather we are currently experiencing is a part of a natural, normal cycle, is being significantly affected by human activities, but still would have occurred in the future or if what we are seeing is completely being caused by humans is actually not my main point in any of this. I just believe that almost all of the environmental efforts/legislation to "go green" is good for the overall health of the planet anyway.

    I'm not saying it is bad, if it happens naturally. I just don't think that we should be forcing the planet to accept so much damage from us just because we can. And, taking positive steps to reduce how much we mess up the planet, and to in fact, try to reverse some of the pollution/damage we have already caused is a good thing for us right now, and for future generations.
    You missed the question about Greenland.... I wonder why?

    Greenland is the biggest island in the world, nominally part of Denmark, but virtually uninhabited and moreover largely uninhabitable. But it wasn't always so.

    When you come to think about it, Greenland is a pretty weird name for anyone to give to a country that is now 99% glacier or barren rock and 1% lichens. Not the sort of name that springs to mind for such a grey, treeless and windswept place, is it?

    But wait. A thousand years ago, Greenland was settled by the Vikings, who prospered, and grew wheat and flax there, and it was at that time that it received its name.

    It was, 1,000 years ago, genuinely a green land.

    At about the same time, monks in Yorkshire were tending their vines.

    If the Vikings could grow wheat in Greenland, and monks in Yorkshire could grow grapes, it was pretty certain that those two spots did not enjoy the same climatic blessings as they do today.
    GREENLAND AND GLOBAL WARMING

    I have no problem with a greener, friendlier, cleaner world. What I have a problem with is the efforts to legislate that world and enact measures that will destroy our economy using the fraud of "The Global Warming" scam just so the libs have more money for their social programs..... and that is all Cap and Tax is. That is all any of the libs "energy policies" are.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

  9. #59
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    You missed the question about Greenland.... I wonder why?



    GREENLAND AND GLOBAL WARMING

    I have no problem with a greener, friendlier, cleaner world. What I have a problem with is the efforts to legislate that world and enact measures that will destroy our economy using the fraud of "The Global Warming" scam just so the libs have more money for their social programs..... and that is all Cap and Tax is. That is all any of the libs "energy policies" are.
    Actually, that's what my last paragraph was addressing. I don't mind it does happen, if it's occurring naturally. Most likely, the shifts in both those lands to having different climates from 1000 years ago was natural. I realize that sometimes my posts are missing things, but I usually have to attend to screaming babies while writing them.

    And, to me, saying the economy will be destroyed by green-friendly legislation is just as bad as believing that man-made global warming is going to cause us all to become extinct in the very near future. They both are a bit over the top to me. I don't agree with simply enacting legislation that would most likely hurt our economy significantly without finding ways to possibly offset the impact, but I still agree with go-green legislation. Some businesses will always be trying to maximize their profits without one iota of a thought about how some of their business practices might be affecting the environment, and the only way to convince these businesses that they can't continue to do such things just for their own greed is to punish them for doing it, generally done through fines. What some people do for greed does negatively affect the rest of us.

    I have never been the kind of person to put the economy over the environment. I would rather future generations be able to have a chance to live on a clean Earth, but have to forage/hunt/fish for their own food, and build their own houses, and do without all of our technology, than to allow the world to be completely destroyed, if we can prevent it, because some people now are worried about their own pocketbooks and possibly having to go without.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Constellation or Climate Research?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    For all of humanity's combined works to equal 1% of the mass of the atmosphere, we'd have to expand our production capacity about 10,000 fold...yes that's ten thousand fold.

    We aren't even dust in the wind.

    This is the main reason I am skeptical of AGW.


    Nobody seems to want to address this fact, or consider how it relates to the matter at hand. How odd.

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