View Poll Results: Should ALL citizens have to pay income taxes?

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  • No, only those who make over the "living wage"

    28 31.11%
  • No, only those in the top 10%

    5 5.56%
  • Yes, every working person should have to pay.

    38 42.22%
  • Other (specify)

    19 21.11%
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Thread: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

  1. #131
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Yes but the scenarios are different. With taxes, the money and wealth you have is partially a result of the society around you.

    No modern wealth or money is truly "self-created." That is a myth. Wealth in the modern world is derived from an individual or group of individuals using the existing mechanics of a society to their benefit. Without the society as a machine, wealth could not be produced. The greater amount of wealth someone has, the more extensively they have utilized their society to gain that wealth. Unless a person has ripped the raw materials needed to assemble that wealth from the ground with their own bare hands, there can be no such thing as a "self made man," forgetting for a moment that the very idea of "wealth" is one created, maintained, and cared for by the society a person lives in. It is the society itself that recognizes the value of what a rich person owns AS wealth and treats it accordingly.

    It's not only a question of what one has gained by being in the top 1%, but what one has used society to achieve. That use demands a repayment if a society set up to be utilized in this way is to survive. If individuals are constantly taking from a system with resources in it without replenishing what they take out, the system will die.

    The top 1% gain a significant amount by paying more. We have varying social attitudes about the "super rich" however it would be laughable to say we treat or value someone who makes $20,000 a year the same as we do someone who makes $2,000,000 a year. Our society has a much kinder view of the wealthy and treats them with far gentler hands in almost every aspect of it's operation. This can be ably demonstrated by the well-known maxim "Poor man's law, rich man's justice"; the fact that our legal system is slanted heavily in favor of the wealthy. Our political system is also a game for the wealthy; how many politicians do you know in the modern era who have to shop at the bargain bins? Our healthcare industry is also much more open to those with great amounts of money as they can afford comprehensive preventative care or new treatments that are often too expensive for your average 20k-er.

    Our social mentality about the rich is also quite generous; despite some leanings in the opposite direction, the majority of our society tends to think highly of someone with money and those with less money will often go to great lengths to emulate the super wealthy. Our popular culture and entertainment glamorizes the lifestyle of obscene wealth and there are ways for even the poor to "try on" the high life if only for a while.

    THAT is why I dont see a problem with taxing the wealthy at a higher rate than those who have less money.


    you don't see a problem because you aren't one of those who are part of the group that the welfare socialists seek to soak. You also, like many socialists or pseudo socialists-use the "obscene rich" to justify punitive and confiscatory tax rates on people making over 200K a year

    Lets suppose the government originally owned all property and everyone was given exactly the same thing-100 acres and a government supplied team of oxen. 30 years later some families were prosperous while other families were almost starving because one group worked hard and smart, the other did not

    should taxes be based on what you got from t he government or what you ended up making with it

    lets look at public education-1000 kids go to the same public school. should the kids who make A's be forced to share college scholarship offers with kids in the same class who are failing?

    The bottom line is I tire of the parasite supporters claiming that I have a duty to fund them and those they pander to. The masses will revolt nonsense gets old as well.

    Some are rich, some are poor, that's the way the world is
    but I don't believe in laying back and saying how bad my luck is

    (John Mellor-RIP)



  2. #132
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    By the way I am still wanting to know what I get for being in the top 1% in terms of getting more. I don't get an additional vote. I don't get the fire trucks to drive faster to my house if it is on fire. I don't use near as much police and I am not constantly in court due to violating laws. In fact, the rich get absolutely nothing additionally de jure and you confuse "getting" with Given. THe rich are GIVEN nothing by the society. They trade and gain wealth by doing stuff that others find valuable. IF Jimmy Page announces a Led Zep reunion and a Million People are willing to pay 100 dollars a ticket to see him and JPJ and Plant play, then that means one million people believe they are getting a hundred dollars in value from listening to greatest rock band in history. Page isn't being GIVEN anything. He is trading something to others and they are trading wealth to him as payment.

    Why does someone like Page, who can provide more value to more people than you or I have a duty to keep far less of his next dollar than you do. and if you socialists truly believe the nonsense you say then why is 200,000 what you supporters of socialism call "rich"

    its not



  3. #133
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    By the way I am still wanting to know what I get for being in the top 1% in terms of getting more. I don't get an additional vote. I don't get the fire trucks to drive faster to my house if it is on fire. I don't use near as much police and I am not constantly in court due to violating laws. In fact, the rich get absolutely nothing additionally de jure and you confuse "getting" with Given. THe rich are GIVEN nothing by the society. They trade and gain wealth by doing stuff that others find valuable. IF Jimmy Page announces a Led Zep reunion and a Million People are willing to pay 100 dollars a ticket to see him and JPJ and Plant play, then that means one million people believe they are getting a hundred dollars in value from listening to greatest rock band in history. Page isn't being GIVEN anything. He is trading something to others and they are trading wealth to him as payment.

    Why does someone like Page, who can provide more value to more people than you or I have a duty to keep far less of his next dollar than you do. and if you socialists truly believe the nonsense you say then why is 200,000 what you supporters of socialism call "rich"

    its not
    I apologize for jumping into the middle of the discussion. Are you saying that since lower income people use more government services, they ought to pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes?

    I think we should tax income and consumption and property. Make the income tax a flat tax. Consumption taxes will tax the poor more than the rich (by percentage). Property taxes will tax the rich more than the poor (by percentage). Flat tax is flat.

  4. #134
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I apologize for jumping into the middle of the discussion. Are you saying that since lower income people use more government services, they ought to pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes?

    I think we should tax income and consumption and property. Make the income tax a flat tax. Consumption taxes will tax the poor more than the rich (by percentage). Property taxes will tax the rich more than the poor (by percentage). Flat tax is flat.
    I tire of people saying it is FAIR that the rich pay more. WHY? It is just as honest to say it is fair to pay for what you use. After all, when I go to McDonalds they don't have ten price lists depending on how much you make. A millionaire who parks his Bentley illegally gets the same 50 dollar ticket as some guy in a beat up POS chevy who does the same thing

    I understand that there are reasons why many want the rich to pay more-from envy to political pandering to practicality

    I oppose any system that allows the political pimps to pander to the many by promising them goodies that the "rich" have to pay for

    if the government wants the rich to pay higher rates, the rich should get some government mandated benefits in return

    right now they do not



  5. #135
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    This explains it far better than I can
    Flat Tax Fiasco
    That article is ridiculous. It assumes that income called something else, but still income is not income. ALL earned money, all capital gains should count as income in a flat tax system, not just payroll tax.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    That article is ridiculous. It assumes that income called something else, but still income is not income. ALL earned money, all capital gains should count as income in a flat tax system, not just payroll tax.
    I also believe this should apply to all inheritance also. That's where most wealthy people get their money tax free. I know the old argument that it a "death tax", but it's still income to the receiver. Can I tell the guy that just painted my house that he doesn't have to pay taxes on the money I just gave him because I've already paid it? What's the difference?

  7. #137
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by jacksbrat View Post
    I also believe this should apply to all inheritance also. That's where most wealthy people get their money tax free. I know the old argument that it a "death tax", but it's still income to the receiver. Can I tell the guy that just painted my house that he doesn't have to pay taxes on the money I just gave him because I've already paid it? What's the difference?
    Why does the government have a right to income that was already taxed

    Death is not a transaction unlike someone working for you. Its a gift and if it is income why not tax all heirs (which would get the politicians voted out) rather than the rich

    the purpose behind the death confiscation tax was to capture wealth that was never taxed-there was not confiscatory progressive income taxes when that crap was enacted

    its nothing more than illegitimate socialist engineering

    nothing screams out envy more than supporting the death tax


    I drove by a farm today that has been in a family for four generations. Why should these people have to spend 500K every time a generation dies to keep it?



  8. #138
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Both statements drip with veracity. Those who pursue wealth normally bring wealth to others. Its like a man who plants a bountiful field of corn-not only does he gain more wealth, so do those who benefit from lower corn prices and the parasites like the field mice who eat the corn and give the farmer nothing in return
    I disagree totally with this. Most wealth that is gained is at the expense of someone else. An "interpreneur" that figures out that he can make more money shutting down a factory in the US and have his product made in china is actually cheating the system. He wants to use cheap labor to make his product, but expects his customers to make US wages to afford to buy his product. Most wealthy people got that way by figuring out how to cheat the poor man.

  9. #139
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    By the way I am still wanting to know what I get for being in the top 1% in terms of getting more. I don't get an additional vote. I don't get the fire trucks to drive faster to my house if it is on fire. I don't use near as much police and I am not constantly in court due to violating laws. In fact, the rich get absolutely nothing additionally de jure and you confuse "getting" with Given. THe rich are GIVEN nothing by the society. They trade and gain wealth by doing stuff that others find valuable. IF Jimmy Page announces a Led Zep reunion and a Million People are willing to pay 100 dollars a ticket to see him and JPJ and Plant play, then that means one million people believe they are getting a hundred dollars in value from listening to greatest rock band in history. Page isn't being GIVEN anything. He is trading something to others and they are trading wealth to him as payment.

    Why does someone like Page, who can provide more value to more people than you or I have a duty to keep far less of his next dollar than you do. and if you socialists truly believe the nonsense you say then why is 200,000 what you supporters of socialism call "rich"

    its not
    I suppose you're just so high in your pediostool that you can't even see all the little meaningless nobodies below you that are holding it up for you.

  10. #140
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    Re: Should ALL citizens pay income taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Why does the government have a right to income that was already taxed
    Uh...a sizable amount of estate tax liability has not been taxed. In fact, if your estate is primarily made up of appreciated property, that hasn't been taxed. The whole notion of trusts in estate planning is to remove appreciation from taxation upon death. Seriously, your tax planner is awful.

    the purpose behind the death confiscation tax was to capture wealth that was never taxed-there was not confiscatory progressive income taxes when that crap was enacted
    Except that estate tax liability often hasn't been taxed in the first place.

    I drove by a farm today that has been in a family for four generations. Why should these people have to spend 500K every time a generation dies to keep it?
    Uh...there are ways to get even the largest family asset down to zero in terms of estate liability.

    Seriously, get a better tax planner.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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