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Affirmative Action

Is affirmative action necessary in today's society?

  • Yes, it bridges the disparity between minority and non-minority students and workers

    Votes: 5 8.5%

  • Yes, it is important for the social welfare and diversity of the country

    Votes: 4 6.8%

  • No, it encourages individuals to identify themselves as "disadvantaged"

    Votes: 25 42.4%

  • No, it provides a basis for "reverse-discrimination"

    Votes: 34 57.6%

  • No, it is devalues the accomplishments of both those who it benefits and those it does not

    Votes: 31 52.5%

  • It is necessary for gender, but not race

    Votes: 2 3.4%

  • It is necessary for race, but not gender

    Votes: 1 1.7%

  • Other, please specify

    Votes: 9 15.3%
  • Total voters
    59
Areopagitican said:
Please, you know it happens.
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Did you bother to read anything?

Areopagitican said:
I want everyone to go on College Confidential, or a similar site, and see what the posted SAT/ACT/GPAs are. Then, see the ethnicity.

There's cases of Hispanics and Blacks getting into competitive schools with SATs/ACTs substantially lower than white counterparts; for little or no reason.
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Obviously not. :doh
 
61 Electric Bron-Yr-Aur said:
So you think you should get in over someone with a 4.0 based on your race?
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You have seen what I have written correct? So why would you ask such a silly question? :doh

It was the racist undertone in his statement. Just because someone has a 3.0 GPA they are now a loafer? Well most of the human race is loafing.
 
Kelzie said:
There is absolutely nothing that prevents minorities from doing well in school and being accepted to college except motivation. Affirmative action is detrimental to motivation.
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That's a nice thought. Seriously, it is. But, have you spent much time in inner city schools? I'm kinda thinking you haven't. There are a lot of failing school districts out there where kids are learning in substandard conditions and being taught by substandard teachers. And all too many of those kids live in substandard conditions at home...in fact, conditions that would make it impossible for anyone to learn.

Not everyone is dealt the same hand at birth.

I agree that affirmative action is outdated and needs to be phased out. But your post demonstrates a serious lack of information about how some kids live in America today.
 
Blackdog said:
You have seen what I have written correct? So why would you ask such a silly question? :doh

It was the racist undertone in his statement. Just because someone has a 3.0 GPA they are now a loafer? Well most of the human race is loafing.
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I had a 2.9 when I graduated from college. I guess that makes me an uber-loafer.
 
justabubba said:
no, that explains your expertise about distilled spirits
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Indeed. Plus, my work as social chairman for my sorority. Mixed drinks were my speciality. And intrafraternity relations. ;)

A few years ago, I was tracking my kids' activities on myspace and made contact with a guy who looked very familiar to me from college. I messaged him to say hi, and said something like, "I'm sure we crossed paths."

Indeed, we did...I apparently had sex with him.

He said, "Don't worry...I think college was a bit of a giddy whirl for you."

He hit the mark with that comment. :mrgreen:
 
Catz Part Deux said:
That's a nice thought. Seriously, it is. But, have you spent much time in inner city schools? I'm kinda thinking you haven't. There are a lot of failing school districts out there where kids are learning in substandard conditions and being taught by substandard teachers. And all too many of those kids live in substandard conditions at home...in fact, conditions that would make it impossible for anyone to learn.

Not everyone is dealt the same hand at birth.

I agree that affirmative action is outdated and needs to be phased out. But your post demonstrates a serious lack of information about how some kids live in America today.
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First hand? No. My best friend teaches middle school in the inner city though. Even given her tendency to exaggerate, it's not that bad. Certainly not to the degree that it would prevent a kid from getting a decent grade if they tried hard enough.

Impossible is a strong word and indicates a serious inability to look at a situation objectively. Oh look, I can subtly insult you too. :2wave:
 
Kelzie said:
First hand? No. My best friend teaches middle school in the inner city though. Even given her tendency to exaggerate, it's not that bad. Certainly not to the degree that it would prevent a kid from getting a decent grade if they tried hard enough.

Impossible is a strong word and indicates a serious inability to look at a situation objectively. Oh look, I can subtly insult you too. :2wave:
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It may not be that bad at her school, but it's definitely been beyond bad at some of the schools I've worked at...black mold, endangering their health. 80% of students reading below grade level.

I can read your post and tell that you've not seen much in the inner city.

To be blunt, because I'm certainly not trying to offer up veiled insults: I don't think you have any experience with this subject. So, your opinion, while interesting, doesn't really have any basis.

You think any kid can learn. Great. So do I. The problem is that in order for every kid to learn, we'd have to fix up some pretty cluster****ed scenarios.

It's hard to learn when you've never been to the dentist in your life and you have a rotten tooth and are in constant pain.

It's hard to learn when you have bad vision, can't see the chalkboard, and your parents can't afford glasses.

It's hard to learn when you've been exposed to lots of trauma at home because your mom is a hooker and gets beaten up regularly.

It's hard to learn when your mom is a junkie and you've been shuttled between 3 or 4 different homes and in and out of the foster care system.

It's hard to learn when mom deals dope out of your living room.

It's hard to learn when you hear gunshots every night in your neighborhood.

It's hard to learn when you get beaten up walking to and from school.

It's hard to learn when you have undiagnosed learning disabilities.

It's hard to learn when you were never taught to read in elementary school.

It's hard to learn when your dad is in prison and you haven't seen him in years, and your mom has had a succession of boyfriends in and out of your house, some of whom have beaten you up and/or molested you.

It's hard to learn when you're in a dangerous school in a community that resembles a war zone.

Those things don't compute for the average suburbanite, but they are very real for a lot of the kids I've worked with.

I'll tell ya what. I'll be working in east, south and central Los Angeles in June (Newton, Rampart, and Ramona Gardens). You're welcome to tag along with me.
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
It may not be that bad at her school, but it's definitely been beyond bad at some of the schools I've worked at...black mold, endangering their health. 80% of students reading below grade level.

I can read your post and tell that you've not seen much in the inner city.
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I can read your post and tell you've offered no evidence that even begins to suggest why black mold would prevent a kid from getting a decent grade if they tried. Outdated books? English hasn't changed all that much in 15 years. Crappy teacher? Good thing that parental involvement is a such a strong indicator of acadamic success.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
That's a nice thought. Seriously, it is. But, have you spent much time in inner city schools? I'm kinda thinking you haven't. There are a lot of failing school districts out there where kids are learning in substandard conditions and being taught by substandard teachers. And all too many of those kids live in substandard conditions at home...in fact, conditions that would make it impossible for anyone to learn.

Not everyone is dealt the same hand at birth.

I agree that affirmative action is outdated and needs to be phased out. But your post demonstrates a serious lack of information about how some kids live in America today.
Click to expand...

Catz Part Deux said:
It may not be that bad at her school, but it's definitely been beyond bad at some of the schools I've worked at...black mold, endangering their health. 80% of students reading below grade level.

I can read your post and tell that you've not seen much in the inner city.

To be blunt, because I'm certainly not trying to offer up veiled insults: I don't think you have any experience with this subject. So, your opinion, while interesting, doesn't really have any basis.

You think any kid can learn. Great. So do I. The problem is that in order for every kid to learn, we'd have to fix up some pretty cluster****ed scenarios.

It's hard to learn when you've never been to the dentist in your life and you have a rotten tooth and are in constant pain.

It's hard to learn when you have bad vision, can't see the chalkboard, and your parents can't afford glasses.

It's hard to learn when you've been exposed to lots of trauma at home because your mom is a hooker and gets beaten up regularly.

It's hard to learn when your mom is a junkie and you've been shuttled between 3 or 4 different homes and in and out of the foster care system.

It's hard to learn when mom deals dope out of your living room.

It's hard to learn when you hear gunshots every night in your neighborhood.

It's hard to learn when you get beaten up walking to and from school.

It's hard to learn when you have undiagnosed learning disabilities.

It's hard to learn when you were never taught to read in elementary school.

It's hard to learn when your dad is in prison and you haven't seen him in years, and your mom has had a succession of boyfriends in and out of your house, some of whom have beaten you up and/or molested you.

It's hard to learn when you're in a dangerous school in a community that resembles a war zone.

Those things don't compute for the average suburbanite, but they are very real for a lot of the kids I've worked with.

I'll tell ya what. I'll be working in east, south and central Los Angeles in June (Newton, Rampart, and Ramona Gardens). You're welcome to tag along with me.
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None of this has anything to do with minorities though. Has to do with ****ty parenting and ****ty govt schools across the country.
 
rivrrat said:
None of this has anything to do with minorities though. Has to do with ****ty parenting and ****ty govt schools across the country.
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Risk factors: failing schools, broken families, community violence, etc. cluster together in certain parts of the country. Some are rural white communities (west Virginia comes to mind). Some are rural black areas. A lot are located in inner city areas with high black and latino populations.

Again, I am not saying that we should keep racial quotas as a policy. However, it's stupid to refuse to see what is in front of our faces: that there are still a lot of Americans who are dealt crappy hands from the moment that they were conceived.

Some of us get a flush or a straight. Some kids get crap.

And, when a kid falls behind in kindergarten or first grade, he or she almost never catches up. Not in second grade, not in twelfth grade, not in life.

It is surprisingly easy for kids to fall through the cracks in the system, and I get tired of kids being blamed for the problems created by adults.
 
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Sanitas said:
Extending on from the "Are some republicans racist?" poll.

Is affirmative action necessary in today's society?

__________________________________________


How exactly does affirmative action increase diversity? It just gives the minority the job, the title, or the college position over a non-minority. The diversity is already there.

Also, in a modern society, I believe it can be counterproductive. If anything, it could turn someone racist who wasn't otherwise.

A little insight - I'm the average white male that this policy turns its back to.
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Affirmative action says you can't discriminate due to race. That's fair today. You will find court cases showing it illegal to have any quotas, so you can't give a place to a race just because it is a minority without a court order. So, much of what people criticize isn't really apart of the actual law. It's more fear than fact.
 
It’s interesting how so many factors of “vulgar libertarianism” (which I mentioned in another thread), seem to fit together, as though an intricate puzzle is being assembled. Affirmative action is opposed along with other social welfare programs based on the myth of America as the land of opportunity. In that worldview, the primary and general cause of poverty is a lack of individual effort stemming from a lack of responsibility and self-reliance. It would be immoral to give people rewards they haven’t earned, and if women and racial minorities are perceived as having the same economic opportunities as the dominant folks, they are being unfairly and immorally pampered, impeding the development of actual responsibility and hard work. Writes Lakoff:

Strict Father morality comes with a notion of the right kind of person - a self-disciplined person, one who can set his own plans, make his own commitments, and carry them out effectively. It requires that competition between people not be impeded in any way if they are to continue to have the incentive to be self-disciplined. Any policy that gives people things they haven’t earned is seen as immoral, because it lessens the incentive to be self-disciplined. From this perspective, affirmative action looks immoral to conservatives, on the grounds that it gives preferential treatment to women and minorities. It is a relatively direct consequence of the Strict Father model.
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But as mentioned, this is reliant on expectations of social mobility that don’t pan out. And it would be ridiculous to insist that the free market cannot possibly generate institutional poverty bred by uncontrollable circumstances, because there is no free market to speak of; I quoted Kevin Carson to explain the fallacy of that:

This school of libertarianism has inscribed on its banner the reactionary watchword: "Them pore ole bosses need all the help they can get." For every imaginable policy issue, the good guys and bad guys can be predicted with ease, by simply inverting the slogan of Animal Farm: "Two legs good, four legs baaaad." In every case, the good guys, the sacrificial victims of the Progressive State, are the rich and powerful. The bad guys are the consumer and the worker, acting to enrich themselves from the public treasury. As one of the most egregious examples of this tendency, consider Ayn Rand's characterization of big business as an "oppressed minority," and of the Military-Industrial Complex as a "myth or worse."

The ideal "free market" society of such people, it seems, is simply actually existing capitalism, minus the regulatory and welfare state: a hyper-thyroidal version of nineteenth century robber baron capitalism, perhaps; or better yet, a society "reformed" by the likes of Pinochet, the Dionysius to whom Milton Friedman and the Chicago Boys played Aristotle.

Vulgar libertarian apologists for capitalism use the term "free market" in an equivocal sense: they seem to have trouble remembering, from one moment to the next, whether they’re defending actually existing capitalism or free market principles. So we get the standard boilerplate article arguing that the rich can’t get rich at the expense of the poor, because "that’s not how the free market works"--implicitly assuming that this is a free market. When prodded, they’ll grudgingly admit that the present system is not a free market, and that it includes a lot of state intervention on behalf of the rich. But as soon as they think they can get away with it, they go right back to defending the wealth of existing corporations on the basis of "free market principles."
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So do not bother deriding affirmative action on the grounds that it is a violation of free market principles; the entire corporate capitalist economy is a violation of free market principles. Corporate capitalism does indeed spawn permanent conditions of destitution for lower classes entirely unrelated to their abilities or efforts. The free market is something quite different. Ironically, so-called “libertarians” and “conservatives” end up supporting massive and pervasive state intervention, and agree with the liberals who deride the free market, rather than deny that the free market had anything to do with this state of affairs.
 
Blackdog said:
Some black loafer with a 3.0? I held a 3.8 and I worked my ass off.

You are really close to the edge with that off color comment.
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How so? I saw it many a time when I was in college. Rich black kids goofing off because they knew they could get into top grad schools with much lower GPAs then us white boys. The black guys who made top grades were respected by everyone except the goof offs who called them "uncle tom's or "acting white"
 
Catz Part Deux said:
If only there was an actual correlation between grad school and intelligence.
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Don't kid yourself. The people who graduate from Yale Law School or Stanford Medical school are mostly brilliant.
 
TurtleDude said:
Don't kid yourself. The people who graduate from Yale Law School or Stanford Medical school are mostly brilliant.
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i'll drink to that
bush_chugalug.gif
 
justabubba said:
i'll drink to that
bush_chugalug.gif
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Doesn't prove anything

He was president. I'd say he did pretty well even compared to other Harvard MBAs' He ran the biggest corporation in the world. If the purpose of an MBA is to prepare someone to lead it prepared Bush well.
 
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