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Does it matter if we a christian nation?

Does it matter if we a christian nation?


  • Total voters
    30
Don't the Jews control the financial sector of this country? If so shouldn't this be a Jewish Nation.

This isn't hate speech, but it is idiotic.

Just like calling the US a Christian nation is idiotic.

The State Constitutions are...Unconstitutional?
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by Dave Miller, Ph.D.


The claim that the Founders and Framers of America, with its constitutions of government, intended “separation of church and state” will surely go down in history as one of the premiere myths of our day (organic evolution ranking near the top as well).

The truth is that the Founders intended for God and Christianity, with its critical principles of morality, to remain woven into the fabric of public life—including our civil government, public schools, and community at large. Proof of this observation abounds. For example, consider the state constitutions. Of the 50 present state constitutions, 46 have “preambles.” And 45 of those 46 preambles make explicit, even passionate, appeals to the God of the Bible! Here they are in alphabetical order (see “U.S. State...,” 2003):
 
The State Constitutions are...Unconstitutional?
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by Dave Miller, Ph.D.


The claim that the Founders and Framers of America, with its constitutions of government, intended “separation of church and state” will surely go down in history as one of the premiere myths of our day (organic evolution ranking near the top as well).

The truth is that the Founders intended for God and Christianity, with its critical principles of morality, to remain woven into the fabric of public life—including our civil government, public schools, and community at large. Proof of this observation abounds. For example, consider the state constitutions. Of the 50 present state constitutions, 46 have “preambles.” And 45 of those 46 preambles make explicit, even passionate, appeals to the God of the Bible! Here they are in alphabetical order (see “U.S. State...,” 2003):

Two things:

1. A preamble is not a portion of law
2. States are free to address god if they like. This has NOTHING to do with the federal government.
 
Two things:

1. A preamble is not a portion of law
2. States are free to address god if they like. This has NOTHING to do with the federal government.

One thing;

Context.

The preambles (and the consensus required to get them ratified with their perspective Constitutions at the time) prove that this nation was in fact deliberately established as a "Christian Nation." The context of the preables quoted are undeniable.
 
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Since most Christians are Catholic this should be a Catholic Nation.
 
One thing;

Context.

The preambles (and the consensus required to get them ratified with their perspective Constitutions at the time) prove that this nation was in fact deliberately established as a "Christian Nation." The context of the preables quoted are undeniable.

Nope. The context has nothing to do with it unless they made God/Christianity part of the actual Constitutions, meaning Law. They're free to talk about God all they like. They're free to be as religious as they like. If they don't include Religion into Law, then Religion is separate from Law, ie The State. If they are separate, then it is not established. ;)
 
Then why the insults?

My first response about idiotic was not intended to be insultive. Sorry. It was intended to be like, "dude, that is a retarded thing to say even in jest" as you would over a beer. It IS idiotic. Not it is IDIOTIC. I have to say though, that your first post I had no idea if you were being sarcastic, but the second one obviously was. Whateva'. Miscommunication. Let's move on.
 
Nope. The context has nothing to do with it unless they made God/Christianity part of the actual Constitutions, meaning Law. They're free to talk about God all they like. They're free to be as religious as they like. If they don't include Religion into Law, then Religion is separate from Law, ie The State. If they are separate, then it is not established. ;)

What purpose could it possibly serve (if not to inform the reader that this is a Christian nation or at the very least a Christian State),.... to put that specific wording into the preambles of 45 State's Constitutions?

The preamble is what sets the context for the way in which the rest of a document is written. You understand that, don't you?

Preamble

–noun
1. an introductory statement; preface; introduction.
2. the introductory part of a statute, deed, or the like, stating the reasons and intent of what follows.
 
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What purpose could it possibly serve (if not to inform the reader that this is a Christian nation or at the very least a Christian State),.... to put that specific wording into the preables of 45 State's Constitutions?

The preamble is what sets the context for the way in which the rest of a document is written. You understand that, don't you?

Preamble

–noun
1. an introductory statement; preface; introduction.
2. the introductory part of a statute, deed, or the like, stating the reasons and intent of what follows.

Here is the preamble of the US Constitution. Where in it does it once mention God or Religion?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America

This is the one Preamble that actually matters.

Also, let's actually look at the use of God in some of the state constitutions:

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF ARKANSAS
(1874)
Preamble

We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government, for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings and secure the same to our selves and posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution.


Grateful for the privilege for choosing a non-religious government. Invoking the name of God means nothing.

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA
(1911)
Preamble

We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution.

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT
(1818)
Preamble

We, the people of the State of Connecticut acknowledging with gratitude, the good providence of God, in having permitted them to enjoy a free government, do, in order more effectually to define, secure, and perpetuate the liberties, rights and privileges which they have derived from their ancestors; hereby, after a careful consideration and revision, ordain and establish the following constitution and form of civil government.

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA
(As revised in 1968 and amended to 1975)
Preamble

We, the people of the State of Florida, being grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, in order to secure its benefits, perfect our government, insure domestic tranquility, maintain public order, and guarantee equal civil and political rights to all, do ordain and establish this constitution.

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF GEORGIA
(As amended through the November 1998 general election)
Preamble

To perpetuate the principles of free government, insure justice to all, preserve peace, promote the interest and happiness of the citizen and of the family, and transmit to posterity the enjoyment of liberty, we the people of Georgia, relying upon the protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

Each one of these, and many others, has nothing to do with God and government. They are thanking God for the ability to be free and to choose their own form of gevernment. Sorry, you are way off base here. :2wave:
 
The State Constitutions are...Unconstitutional?
pixel.gif
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.


The claim that the Founders and Framers of America, with its constitutions of government, intended “separation of church and state” will surely go down in history as one of the premiere myths of our day (organic evolution ranking near the top as well).

The truth is that the Founders intended for God and Christianity, with its critical principles of morality, to remain woven into the fabric of public life—including our civil government, public schools, and community at large. Proof of this observation abounds. For example, consider the state constitutions. Of the 50 present state constitutions, 46 have “preambles.” And 45 of those 46 preambles make explicit, even passionate, appeals to the God of the Bible! Here they are in alphabetical order (see “U.S. State...,” 2003):

That's not the Constitution, which was the document written by the founders. While they could have had imput into their own individual state constitution, the one which they all ratified was that of the Constitution. And in that document, which created the federal government and was presented along side of the Bill of Rights; you will find no mention of any god. The government was always meant to be secular.
 
Here is the preamble of the US Constitution. Where in it does it once mention God or Religion?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America

This is the one Preamble that actually matters.

Also, let's actually look at the use of God in some of the state constitutions:

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF ARKANSAS
(1874)
Preamble

We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government, for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings and secure the same to our selves and posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

Grateful for the privilege for choosing a non-religious government. Invoking the name of God means nothing.

Each one of these, and many others, has nothing to do with God and government. They are thanking God for the ability to be free and to choose their own form of gevernment. Sorry, you are way off base here. :2wave:

1: If you look at the poll results, you will see that I voted "it doesn't matter" that this (the U.S.) was founded as a Christian Nation.

2: As for the rest of your rant,... why would a non Christian government give thanks to the Christian GOD in such an official document as the State's Constitutions,... if not to recognize his (perceived) role in the founding of the nation?

I digress,... I have bigger fish to fry.
 
2: As for the rest of your rant,... why would a non Christian government give thanks to the Christian GOD in such an official document as the State's Constitutions,... if not to recognize his (perceived) role in the founding of the nation?

Propaganda.
 
That's not the Constitution, which was the document written by the founders. While they could have had imput into their own individual state constitution, the one which they all ratified was that of the Constitution. And in that document, which created the federal government and was presented along side of the Bill of Rights; you will find no mention of any god. The government was always meant to be secular.

I provided the quotes to the preambles to help illustrate the context... the 'setting' or the mindset of the people during the founding of the nation.

You can deny the relevancy of the use of Christian references in so many of the State's Constitutions,... but you can't deny that they are there.

I have nothing to gain by convincing you of the significance of the wording the States ratified. I offer it only to illustrate the mindset at the time the documents were written.
 
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I provided the quotes to the preambles to help illustrate the context... the 'setting' or the mindset of the people during the founding of the nation.

You can deny the relevancy of the use of Christian references in so many of the State's Constitutions,... but you can't deny that they are there.

I have nothing to gain by convincing you of the significance of the wording the States ratified. I offer it only to illustrate the mindset at the time the documents were written.

How many of the 10 commandments are law?
 
How many of the 10 commandments are law?

:rofl :doh

That depends on who you ask.

God would (most likely) say 'all of them.'

And that would be the very same God who was mentioned in all those State's preambles,... by the way.
 
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:rofl :doh

That depends on who you ask.

God would say 'all of them.'

Nice deflect, I think you know the answer. Not some invisible leprechaun, the law of the land. In all the States, with all their "religious" preambles, how many of the 10 commandments are law? It was a simple question, either you were too daft to follow or you know exactly the answer and don't like it. Which is it?

3, 3 of the 10 commandments, the backbone of Christian law, are actual law in the US. Murder, Theft, Witness (and that one is only illegal in court of law). How are we a Christian nation? I mean, I though that was the mindset of the time. Yet 30% of the Commandments, a base tenet of Christianity, is illegal. So much for us being a Christian nation.
 
Nice deflect, I think you know the answer. Not some invisible leprechaun, the law of the land. In all the States, with all their "religious" preambles, how many of the 10 commandments are law? It was a simple question, either you were too daft to follow or you know exactly the answer and don't like it. Which is it?

3, 3 of the 10 commandments, the backbone of Christian law, are actual law in the US. Murder, Theft, Witness (and that one is only illegal in court of law). How are we a Christian nation? I mean, I though that was the mindset of the time. Yet 30% of the Commandments, a base tenet of Christianity, is illegal. So much for us being a Christian nation.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight. I voted that it doesn't matter.

However, I do believe the nation was founded and intentionally so as a "Christian nation." That only 30% of the commandments ever got enacted into law doesn't surprise me in the least. As even the most ardent Christians I know (and have ever known) will tell you,... that you have to come to your beliefs willingly and without being forced.

Couple that sentiment with the fact that most people (percentage) who claim to 'believe in God' and such,... who make up more than half the nation's population,.... do not necessarily walk the talk,... and there's no surprise at all that only 30% of the commandments got made into law.

We can be a crappy example of what a 'Christian Nation' should look like,... and still be one.
 
1: If you look at the poll results, you will see that I voted "it doesn't matter" that this (the U.S.) was founded as a Christian Nation.

2: As for the rest of your rant,... why would a non Christian government give thanks to the Christian GOD in such an official document as the State's Constitutions,... if not to recognize his (perceived) role in the founding of the nation?

I digress,... I have bigger fish to fry.

I already stated it. You shouldn't start cooking another dish until you have properly cooked this one, unless you just want to have a bunch of crappy meals, that is. :lol:
 
Again, I don't have a dog in this fight. I voted that it doesn't matter.

However, I do believe the nation was founded and intentionally so as a "Christian nation." That only 30% of the commandments ever got enacted into law doesn't surprise me in the least. As even the most ardent Christians I know (and have ever known) will tell you,... that you have to come to your beliefs willingly and without being forced.

Couple that sentiment with the fact that most people (percentage) who claim to 'believe in God' and such,... who make up more than half the nation's population,.... do not necessarily walk the talk,... and there's no surprise at all that only 30% of the commandments got made into law.

We can be a crappy example of what a 'Christian Nation' should look like,... and still be one.

It because the construct of our government is not based upon "Christian" values, but rather on political theory which had developed which emphasized the importance of natural rights. the 30% is actually coincidental, as we made it illegal not because some god said so but because those 3 infringe upon the rights of others, including that of fair trial (which is the witness). Our laws are not based on laws of god, but rather laws of man which respect the natural rights of the individual. Just because the populace may be a majority of Christian does not make our government anything other than secular; as it was intended from the beginning.
 
It because the construct of our government is not based upon "Christian" values, but rather on political theory which had developed which emphasized the importance of natural rights. the 30% is actually coincidental, as we made it illegal not because some god said so but because those 3 infringe upon the rights of others, including that of fair trial (which is the witness). Our laws are not based on laws of god, but rather laws of man which respect the natural rights of the individual. Just because the populace may be a majority of Christian does not make our government anything other than secular; as it was intended from the beginning.

The significance of the fact that 45 out of 50 State's preambles refer to God in one aspect or another is (to me) a significant indicator of the fact that this is (was intended to be) a Christian nation. (again- it speaks to context)

Imagine trying to get that wording into the State's preambles today.

Even with the majority of the population claiming to be 'Christian',....

You wouldn't have a chance.

This is my last on it.... I have no more interest in the issue. You can have the last word on it.
 
why would a non Christian government give thanks to the Christian GOD in such an official document as the State's Constitutions,... if not to recognize his (perceived) role in the founding of the nation?
They didn't. They gave thanks to a generic "creator". Not all of the founders were Christians. Some were deists, atheists, and agnostics, but most did believe in some kind of supreme being (which was obviously a strong norm for the time, so it wasn't even that outstanding).

But back to the subject, my points are that:

1. The 1st Amendment speaks for itself. The US was (among) the 1st nations to ever explicitly disallow the govt to establish a state religion. Even many of the countries in Europe still have Christianity as the state religion, so the US is a much more secular govt. in that area.

2. The US is a Christian nation in that most Americans claim to be Christians. The US is not an officially Christian nation because the 1st Amendment created a secular govt which was intended to stay out of religious matters. That sums it up the best.

2. Regardless of the 1st Amendment, if the US were to establish a state religion, that would go sour (just like all theocratic govts do) and I would oppose it for obvious reasons (like most of the American People would)
 
The significance of the fact that 45 out of 50 State's preambles refer to God in one aspect or another is (to me) a significant indicator of the fact that this is (was intended to be) a Christian nation. (again- it speaks to context)

Imagine trying to get that wording into the State's preambles today.

Even with the majority of the population claiming to be 'Christian',....

You wouldn't have a chance.

This is my last on it.... I have no more interest in the issue. You can have the last word on it.

And I shall. The significance of the fact that only 30% of the 10 commandments correspond to actual law is a significant indicator of the fact that this was intended to be a secular government.
 
They didn't. They gave thanks to a generic "creator". Not all of the founders were Christians. Some were deists, atheists, and agnostics, but most did believe in some kind of supreme being (which was obviously a strong norm for the time, so it wasn't even that outstanding).

But back to the subject, my points are that:

1. The 1st Amendment speaks for itself. The US was (among) the 1st nations to ever explicitly disallow the govt to establish a state religion. Even many of the countries in Europe still have Christianity as the state religion, so the US is a much more secular govt. in that area.

2. The US is a Christian nation in that most Americans claim to be Christians. The US is not an officially Christian nation because the 1st Amendment created a secular govt which was intended to stay out of religious matters. That sums it up the best.

2. Regardless of the 1st Amendment, if the US were to establish a state religion, that would go sour (just like all theocratic govts do) and I would oppose it for obvious reasons (like most of the American People would)

:shock:

You are actually going to make me thank this post,... aren't you.

(reading again)

(again)

Marking the calender.
 
:shock:

You are actually going to make me thank this post,... aren't you.

(reading again)

(again)

Marking the calender.

Nothing else? Thats it? The State Constitution argument was you main one and you just fold. That was easy. :lol:
 
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