View Poll Results: Should/Can libertarianism work?

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  • Yes of course but first we need to become more known.

    28 31.82%
  • Yes but we will never get elected.

    10 11.36%
  • No and I'm damn glad of it.

    42 47.73%
  • No because we will never get well known/enough votes.

    8 9.09%
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Thread: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

  1. #51
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    Dude, "far-right" in comparison to what!? Hippy communists at Berkley and European socialists? This is the United States of America, Jack. Adam Smith and Friedman are free-market capitalists. Nothing "far-right" about that.
    Free market capitalism is a right wing philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander;1058680176By the way, I'm still waiting for you to retract your earlier assertion about Friedman being "basically an anarcho-capitalist". He's not even [I
    close[/I] to being an anarcho-capitalist. Retract your false accusation.
    Sorry, i meant to say he is basically a completely free-market capitalist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    Radical left!? They were adamant supporters of the free-market. The Founders cannot be viewed through the classic left/right dichotomy anyway. They were economically conservative and socially liberal. They weren't "far-left" or "far-right".
    in terms of their movement from monarchy to a more democratic philosophy, that is moving to the left.
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  2. #52
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    Libertarianism is to anarchism, as Authoritarianism is to totalitarianism. Just lighter flavors. As you move more and more libertarian, you move closer and closer to anarchy. Same with authoritarian principles, after a while you are a police state.
    And as you move more and more towards the left, you move closer and closer to authoritarianism.

  3. #53
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Libertarianism is to anarchism, as Authoritarianism is to totalitarianism. Just lighter flavors. As you move more and more libertarian, you move closer and closer to anarchy. Same with authoritarian principles, after a while you are a police state.
    Thus explains the hyper-liberal view. Anything that disallows you to whine to a bloated bureaucracy when anything happens to you is anarchist. Under a true libertarian state, welfare would still exist (although greatly reformed), public funds would still exist, taxes would still exist, and many other programs. You just wouldn't see a bunch of helpless idiots clamoring for the state to bail them out of a myriad of self-created problems. Teach a man to fish and you make a libertarian. Give a man a fish and you create a socialist.

  4. #54
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    And as you move more and more towards the left, you move closer and closer to authoritarianism.
    That is not true at all. Authoritarianism does not cohere with either left-right on the political dichotomy. If left-right is economic, up-down is social and there can be authoritarian right(hitler) and authoritarian left(Mao)
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  5. #55
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Thus explains the hyper-liberal view. Anything that disallows you to whine to a bloated bureaucracy when anything happens to you is anarchist. Under a true libertarian state, welfare would still exist (although greatly reformed), public funds would still exist, taxes would still exist, and many other programs. You just wouldn't see a bunch of helpless idiots clamoring for the state to bail them out of a myriad of self-created problems. Teach a man to fish and you make a libertarian. Give a man a fish and you create a socialist.
    That's a straw man argument. Actually ask a socialist what he believes and it doesnt involve the state
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  6. #56
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Yes it does. It always will. Democratic socialism is a pipe-dream construct spread by lazy individuals who violently masturbate to Marx posters.

    All socialism is authoritarian.

  7. #57
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    How so? Can either of you explain to me what you mean by this?
    The first thing that comes to my mind is the french revolution. Now the french nobility were not libertarian (so please don't take this as me saying that they were), however one of the reasons it came about was because of food shortages (I am sure we all remember the famous quote by Marie Antoinette, "let them eat cake"). One of the principals of libertarianism is very strong property rights. Now this is an extreme example, but if people do not feel that they are getting what they need out of life, they will ignore this principal and steal food. If things are bad enough, they will go so far as to topple a government (not the only reason for the french revolution, but one of them) in the effort to gain basic necessities.

    Libertarianism relies on the existence of rules that are basically set in stone, such as the idea of natural rights, and relies on the idea that people would have to be innately moral (in terms of how a libertarian views morality) since we would have a simple government that does not do very much. However, history has shown that people will commit all sorts of evil to get what they want, whether it is through intimidate, exploitation, theft, etc. Libertarian government is very minimalist and would not present enough of a deterrent against the worse sides of our nature. Sure we would have law enforcement, but it wouldn't protect against even simple things like people putting poisonous substances in our food in order to turn a quick profit. And by the time action was brought against whatever company did that, people would already be dead, as happened in China recently with their pet food problem (they are not a libertarian government, but they have very loose controls over this sort of thing, so there is a similarity.)

    In short, I think a purely libertarian government would not last long in a pure state and it would result in a lot of injury and death as people are as inherently immoral as they are moral.

    I am not saying that libertarian ideas are bad, in fact on an individual level they are excellent, but I do think they need to be balanced with other ideologies to be workable society wide.

    Also, there is no good voting option for me, because I would love to be a libertarian if I thought the ideas were workable without harm.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-11-10 at 04:14 PM.

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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    Free market capitalism is a right wing philosophy.


    Yea, it was all Fox News' idea! And Karl Rove and Paul Wolfowitz! The right-wing, fathers of free-market capitalism!!!

    Sorry, but you just sound ridiculous right now. Free-market economics was the product of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment"]Age of the Enlightenment[/ame], not the "right-wing".

    Sorry, i meant to say he is basically a completely free-market capitalist.
    He's not a "completely free-market capitalist". He's a proponent of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics"]Chicago School of economics[/ame], a modernized and refined theory of free-market (not completely free-market) economics.

    in terms of their movement from monarchy to a more democratic philosophy, that is moving to the left.
    Socially, they were "leftist", economically, they were "rightist", thus, they do not fall under the classic left/right dichotomy.

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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    That is not true at all. Authoritarianism does not cohere with either left-right on the political dichotomy. If left-right is economic, up-down is social and there can be authoritarian right(hitler) and authoritarian left(Mao)
    All leftist economic philosophy is ultimately authoritarian, whether it's the state or the collective exercising said authority, it is authoritarianism nonetheless.

  10. #60
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    That's a straw man argument. Actually ask a socialist what he believes and it doesnt involve the state
    And how do you propose to arrive at your stateless, classless egalitarian society if not through coercive state/populist action?

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