View Poll Results: Should/Can libertarianism work?

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  • Yes of course but first we need to become more known.

    28 31.82%
  • Yes but we will never get elected.

    10 11.36%
  • No and I'm damn glad of it.

    42 47.73%
  • No because we will never get well known/enough votes.

    8 9.09%
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Thread: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

  1. #281
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    And the mainstream criticism against libertarians follows: Minding to your own business precludes the notion that you are selfish and cannot be trusted to voluntarily contribute to the worse off in society. It's unfortunate but it's true that such a stigma has arisen out of a relatively harmless philosophy( that I somewhat identify with)
    I assert that there is a huge difference between minding one's own business and taking care of one's own, and an aversion to charity.

    Minding your own business doesn't mean you ignore a 4yo wandering around in the road. It doesn't mean that if you know someone who is in need, that you might not offer such help as you are able and willing to give, if you think that is the appropriate response.

    It is coerced charity (an oxymoron if ever was one!) that most libertarians find objectionable (ie gov't welfare).

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  2. #282
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    And the mainstream criticism against libertarians follows: Minding to your own business precludes the notion that you are selfish and cannot be trusted to voluntarily contribute to the worse off in society. It's unfortunate but it's true that such a stigma has arisen out of a relatively harmless philosophy( that I somewhat identify with)
    No. The mainstream criticism against libertarianism is that it is wrong about history, humanity, governance, capitalism, reality, everything. Its a beautiful picture that libertarianism paints, problem is it's a fantasy landscape.

    Rand Paul's contention that segregated lunch counters would have gone away without Title II has provoked some excellent new critiques of his belief system. I commend this one:

    Excerpted from “The lesson of Rand Paul: libertarianism is juvenile” BY GABRIEL WINANT, Salon, FRIDAY, MAY 21, 2010 08:30 ET
    It's time to stop taking libertarianism seriously.

    Ironically, the best way into this point comes from another brilliant libertarian, legal scholar Richard Epstein. Says Epstein, "To be against Title II in 1964 would be to be brain-dead to the underlying realities of how this world works."

    There’s the key -- "the underlying realities of how the world works." Because never, and I mean never, has there been capitalist enterprise that wasn't ultimately underwritten by the state. This is true at an obvious level that even most libertarians would concede (though maybe not some of the Austrian economists whom Rand Paul adores): for the system to work, you need some kind of bare bones apparatus for enforcing contracts and protecting property. But it's also true in a more profound, historical sense. To summarize very briefly a long and complicated process, we got capitalism in the first place through a long process of flirtation between governments on the one hand, and bankers and merchants on the other, culminating in the Industrial Revolution. What libertarians revere as an eternal, holy truth is in fact, in the grand scheme of human history, quite young. And if they'd just stop worshiping for a minute, they'd notice the parents hovering in the background.

    Libertarians like Paul are walking around with the idea that the world could just snap back to a naturally-occurring benign order if the government stopped interfering. As Paul implied, good people wouldn't shop at the racist stores, so there wouldn't be any.

    This is the belief system of people who have been the unwitting recipients of massive government backing for their entire lives. To borrow a phrase, they were born on third base, and think they hit a triple. We could fill a library with the details of the state underwriting enjoyed by American business -- hell, we could fill a fair chunk of the Internet, if we weren't using it all on Rand Paul already.
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  3. #283
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    No. The mainstream criticism against libertarianism is that it is wrong about history, humanity, governance, capitalism, reality, everything. Its a beautiful picture that libertarianism paints, problem is it's a fantasy landscape.

    Rand Paul's contention that segregated lunch counters would have gone away without Title II has provoked some excellent new critiques of his belief system. I commend this one:
    The portion of the article you quoted, does not really critique Rand with any substance, but rather merely disses him and references other works as justification.

    I followed some of those links. One that you referred to was the book "The Great Transformation" by Polanyi... who happened to be a socialist, or favor socialist economics.

    To quote a bit from the Wiki article:

    Polanyi makes the distinction between markets as an auxiliary tool for ease of exchange of goods and Market Societies. Market Societies are those where markets are the paramount institution for the exchange of goods through price mechanisms. Polanyi argues that there are three general types of economic systems that existed before the rise of a society based on a free market economy: Redistributive, Reciprocity and Householding.

    Redistributive: Trade and production is focused to a central entity such as a tribal leader or feudal lord and then redistributed to members of their society.
    Reciprocity: The exchange of goods is based on reciprocal exchanges between social entities. On a macro level this would include the production of goods to gift to other groups.
    Householding: Economies where production is centered around individual household production. Family units produce food, textile goods, and tools for their own consumption.

    These three forms were not mutually exclusive nor were they mutually exclusive of markets for the exchange of goods. The main distinction is that these three forms of economic organization were based around the social aspects of the society they operated in and were explicitly tied to those social relationships. Polanyi argued that these economic forms depended on the social principles of Centricity and Symmetry. Markets existed as an axillary avenue for the exchange of goods that were otherwise not obtainable. They relied on the social Principles of Centricity and Symmetry.
    Uh-huh. Translation: Redistributive: the peasants work the fields. The Baron or King decides how much they get to keep of their labor. The Ruler then redistributes the production of society according to his own formulae, which usually means that he and his family and his enforcers (knights), buddies and supporters get the lion's share while everyone else stays poor.

    Reciprocity is barter. Barter is comparatively inefficient compared to market economies.

    Householding is where everyone makes their own. Economically this is terribly ineffecient as it prevents specialization and mass production.

    Yes, government has a role to play in market economies: to ensure private property and legitimate exchange, and to punish those who use force or fraud to skew the exchanges in their favor. Libertarians are fully aware of this, that's why they aren't anarchists.

    Regarding Polanyi, the article said this:
    He ended his work with a prediction of a socialist society, noting, "after a century of blind 'improvement', man is restoring his 'habitation.'"[2]
    Sorry but I have trouble taking socialists seriously. If you look at what has happened/is happening in virtually every socialist country, it isn't good. Either the Party Elite gets all the best stuff and everyone else goes hungry, or the economy collapses due to excessive social spending (Greece, also in progress in France), or everyone is rationed and the incentive to work is greatly reduced (much of Europe).

    Back to the original point... we can't know for certain what would have happened in the US if the Civil Rights Act and other laws had been different (note that Rand didn't say that NO such laws were needed, just that some of them may have gone too far in gov't intervention!), but when I look around me at how much society/attitudes/norms have changed in the past 25 years, I can't believe that this was all simply because of a few laws.

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    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  4. #284
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    You missed the point. Modern capitalism is the product of a long running collusion of private interests and public interests. Libertarianism's determination to promote the role of the former and demote the role of the latter is based on a dangerous misreading of history and “the underlying realities of how the world works.” It's dangerous when we consider the consequences of a financial system melt down. It's dangerous when we consider the mass contamination of the Gulf of Mexico with raw oil, to name just a couple of recent news items.
    Last edited by Chappy; 05-23-10 at 09:24 PM.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  5. #285
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    You missed the point. Modern capitalism is the product of a long running collusion of private interests and public interests. Libertarianism's determination to promote the role of the former and demote the role of the latter is based on a dangerous misreading of history and “the underlying realities of how the world works.”
    This collusion has often just enriched a few at the expense of others. Just because the status quo is what you've experienced, doesn't make that the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    It's dangerous when we consider the consequences of a financial system melt
    down.
    The government encouraged people to make risky loans, gave Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac blank checks to make risky loans, and the Fed had an inflationary monetary policy that made some sort of a bubble inevitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    It's dangerous when we consider the mass contamination of the Gulf of Mexico with raw oil, to name just a couple of recent news items.
    Most Libertarians consider pollution to be an issue of the commons and don't mind government regulation.
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  6. #286
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    I think nearly everyone has some libertarian ideals however the problem with full on libertarians is they are all or nothing.They complain no one will join their club but if anyone argues against one tiny point they will kick them out of it.
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

  7. #287
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Libertarians are, if nothing else, consistent.

    Conservatives hate government involvement in the economy but love to have the government stick its nose in our "moral" lives (abortion, prayer in schools, gay rights, etc.)

    Liberals hate government involvement in our moral lives but love to have the government oversee and manage the economy.

    Libertarians hate government involvement.

  8. #288
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikhail View Post
    I think nearly everyone has some libertarian ideals however the problem with full on libertarians is they are all or nothing.They complain no one will join their club but if anyone argues against one tiny point they will kick them out of it.
    Libertarians are a diverse group. Many are unyielding, wanting 0 government involvement. Others are more moderate and believe that government has its place, albeit a much smaller one than most others.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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  9. #289
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Libertarians are, if nothing else, consistent.

    Conservatives hate government involvement in the economy but love to have the government stick its nose in our "moral" lives (abortion, prayer in schools, gay rights, etc.)

    Liberals hate government involvement in our moral lives but love to have the government oversee and manage the economy.

    Libertarians hate government involvement.
    again...about as wrong as you can be...Libertarians dont disbelieve in government involvement. They believe in local and state levels of government under the control of the citizens and they belive in a constitutionally backed federal government. No on is or has advocated anarchy or the overthrow of government...only the effective and efficient administration of taxpayer dollars and resources. Looking at the dismal failure that is the federal government SURELy you cant actually believe that what the democrats AND republicans have done is a GOOD thing...

  10. #290
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Libertarians are, if nothing else, consistent.

    Conservatives hate government involvement in the economy but love to have the government stick its nose in our "moral" lives (abortion, prayer in schools, gay rights, etc.)

    Liberals hate government involvement in our moral lives but love to have the government oversee and manage the economy.

    Libertarians hate UNWARRANTED government involvement.
    fixed that for you
    the modification was necessary to differentiate between anarchists who oppose any government authority and those libertarians who want no more government than is necessary
    and divining how much is necessary is the rub
    not just for libertarians
    so called conservatives say they want smaller government - but they are unable to point to the programs they would end, which elimination would amount to significant reduction of government expenditures
    our population wants all that government can provide without having to pay the cost
    which is what has caused us to recently change from being the world's major creditor nation to now be the world's major debtor nation
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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