View Poll Results: Should/Can libertarianism work?

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  • Yes of course but first we need to become more known.

    28 31.82%
  • Yes but we will never get elected.

    10 11.36%
  • No and I'm damn glad of it.

    42 47.73%
  • No because we will never get well known/enough votes.

    8 9.09%
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Thread: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

  1. #191
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    So you condone a reality where no child goes hungry and everyone lives happily and peacefully ever after.
    actually, i heartily embrace a government which is willing to work to see that no child goes hungry and lives in a peaceful environment
    in the view of this old fart, if you can't dream it, then you will never accomplish it

    Whatever you got, pass it over here. I don't want to feel any pain either.
    not a problem; i will rustle up some munchies
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  2. #192
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    actually, i heartily embrace a government which is willing to work to see that no child goes hungry and lives in a peaceful environment
    in the view of this old fart, if you can't dream it, then you will never accomplish it
    Why does it have to be the government? Why don't you organize a charity or something and start cleaning up your part of the country? Why must you force me into your wants by empowering the Federal government?

  3. #193
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but ignoring the plight of the children of the lazy douchebags i do not
    or a willingness to disregard any other element of our society which needs help thru no fault of their own
    I can understand it to a point with the general libertarian philosophy, and it is the difference between a more emotional focused ideology compared to one that is more about reason.

    While you're shouting "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" someone actually is, and more than just that single child. They're thinking about the children that have since grown up, they're thinking about the children that will come in the future, they are thinking the children that even with all our help are still going to be needy.

    The theory is that the more you subsidize bad behavior, the more you make bad behavior able to be sustained to an adequette level ,then the more bad behavior you will get.

    To take such a macro idea more to a micro representation shrink it down into a few. You have one person that's completely lazy but popping out kids. Why "punish" the kids (such wonderful use of emotional laced words) for the parents irresponsability. Lets let the Parent keep the kid, but subsidize them with money and health care (of course hoping the money actually all goes to helping the kid).

    But once you do that you then have two people who have a penhanct for laziness, but previously had drive to work despite it to support their kids. They now see they can be lazy AND support their kids, so consiously or subconsiously allow themselves to fall into that. Naturally we must THINK OF THE CHILDREN! so government takes more money from everyone else to take care of those two peoples kids, along with the first persons.

    And this continues, onward and onward. More money must be taken from more people to be given to more and more people who are doing nothing to deserve that money under the guise of "helping the children" even though there's no garauntee all that money is even going TO the children's well being. All while breading a notion that if you can't or don't want to succeed the government can and will pick you up and make life livable, and with that understanding pushing what the definition of "livable" is wider and wider with each passing initiative.

    Yes, Libertarian ideals would cause some problem "For the children!!!!" if enact right off. In part though that is only because of the rampant growth of the problem due to non-libertarian policies essentially rewarding irresponsability over the years.

    The theory is that while the children in the immediete present would suffer, over time the amount of children in such a situation as to require such help would be severely reduced while also providing less reason for the government to be taking more money and freedom from those children and their childrens children as they grow older.

    Conversely you can continue to reward negative behavior and continue to increase the amount of kids in a bad situation while also sucking the lifeblood from every actual working person in the country.

    From the libertarian way of thinking, that seems to be the option. Understand the inevitable unfortunante short term negatives in exchange for addressing the root problem thus having less problematic situations in the future and more freedom for the rest of the population, or, continue to deal with the symptoms rather than the sickness which continues its growing and spreading nature on the backs of the rest of society.

    Essentially, the Libertarian view is looking at this from a multiple generation stand point and what will help "the chlidren" of now, tomorrow, and tomorrow's tomorrow both as children and as adults where as the other view point is simply looking at the here and now and to hell with the future.

  4. #194
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    actually, i heartily embrace a government which is willing to work to see that no child goes hungry and lives in a peaceful environment
    in the view of this old fart, if you can't dream it, then you will never accomplish it
    Frankly I find it sad that if you're going to dream something your DREAM is that the government does this and not the people themselves.

  5. #195
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I can understand it to a point with the general libertarian philosophy, and it is the difference between a more emotional focused ideology compared to one that is more about reason.

    While you're shouting "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" someone actually is, and more than just that single child. They're thinking about the children that have since grown up, they're thinking about the children that will come in the future, they are thinking the children that even with all our help are still going to be needy.

    The theory is that the more you subsidize bad behavior, the more you make bad behavior able to be sustained to an adequette level ,then the more bad behavior you will get.

    To take such a macro idea more to a micro representation shrink it down into a few. You have one person that's completely lazy but popping out kids. Why "punish" the kids (such wonderful use of emotional laced words) for the parents irresponsability. Lets let the Parent keep the kid, but subsidize them with money and health care (of course hoping the money actually all goes to helping the kid).

    But once you do that you then have two people who have a penhanct for laziness, but previously had drive to work despite it to support their kids. They now see they can be lazy AND support their kids, so consiously or subconsiously allow themselves to fall into that. Naturally we must THINK OF THE CHILDREN! so government takes more money from everyone else to take care of those two peoples kids, along with the first persons.

    And this continues, onward and onward. More money must be taken from more people to be given to more and more people who are doing nothing to deserve that money under the guise of "helping the children" even though there's no garauntee all that money is even going TO the children's well being. All while breading a notion that if you can't or don't want to succeed the government can and will pick you up and make life livable, and with that understanding pushing what the definition of "livable" is wider and wider with each passing initiative.

    Yes, Libertarian ideals would cause some problem "For the children!!!!" if enact right off. In part though that is only because of the rampant growth of the problem due to non-libertarian policies essentially rewarding irresponsability over the years.

    The theory is that while the children in the immediete present would suffer, over time the amount of children in such a situation as to require such help would be severely reduced while also providing less reason for the government to be taking more money and freedom from those children and their childrens children as they grow older.

    Conversely you can continue to reward negative behavior and continue to increase the amount of kids in a bad situation while also sucking the lifeblood from every actual working person in the country.

    From the libertarian way of thinking, that seems to be the option. Understand the inevitable unfortunante short term negatives in exchange for addressing the root problem thus having less problematic situations in the future and more freedom for the rest of the population, or, continue to deal with the symptoms rather than the sickness which continues its growing and spreading nature on the backs of the rest of society.

    Essentially, the Libertarian view is looking at this from a multiple generation stand point and what will help "the chlidren" of now, tomorrow, and tomorrow's tomorrow both as children and as adults where as the other view point is simply looking at the here and now and to hell with the future.
    You deserve an award for best understanding non libertarian.
    Great post.

    Especially the last paragraph.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  6. #196
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Frankly I find it sad that if you're going to dream something your DREAM is that the government does this and not the people themselves.
    dont the people elect the government?
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  7. #197
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    dont the people elect the government?
    Even the most democratic government only represents 50.1% of us
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  8. #198
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Even the most democratic government only represents 50.1% of us
    So your superior system of governance is?
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  9. #199
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    So your superior system of governance is?
    It leaves people generally to themselves. If they want to form a business, let them form a business. If they want to form a commune, let them form a commune. It leaves people to follow their own self-interest as long as they don't impose force on anyone else. Of course people will still be influenced by economic and social trends, but that is inevitable in any system. Government has its place, but I believe that place is reletively small.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  10. #200
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    It leaves people generally to themselves. If they want to form a business, let them form a business. If they want to form a commune, let them form a commune. It leaves people to follow their own self-interest as long as they don't impose force on anyone else. Of course people will still be influenced by economic and social trends, but that is inevitable in any system. Government has its place, but I believe that place is reletively small.
    I definately am libertarian in that regard as well. My biggest point of contention(that keeps me from being a modern libertarian) is my views on economics and to what extent the government needs to play a role. :P
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

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