View Poll Results: Should/Can libertarianism work?

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  • Yes of course but first we need to become more known.

    28 31.82%
  • Yes but we will never get elected.

    10 11.36%
  • No and I'm damn glad of it.

    42 47.73%
  • No because we will never get well known/enough votes.

    8 9.09%
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Thread: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

  1. #101
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I don't find libertarianism to be that extreme. There are still plenty of regulations...just not nearly as many as now. Let me put this on a scale of 1 to 10. If 1 meant martial law akin to the "wild, wild west" and 10 to be a living embodiment of 1984, I'd want about a 3. Enough to keep the status quo, make sure people's basic needs are taken care of and that laws are met and adhered to, but far from a state that needs to be in your life with unnecessary concerns. And as a self-avowed social Darwinist, if that means the weakest link can't keep up, so be it. A stable, prosperous society is well worth the price of a few pukes who can't make it or, most likely, don't want to try to the point of making it.
    And where would you say we currently find ourselves on your scale?

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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    Strawman? I wasn't even arguing with anyone, just giving my opinion.
    You were still casting liberals to be a certain thing and then bashing that thing down.

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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    And where would you say we currently find ourselves on your scale?
    During Reagan, 3 1/2. During Bush, 5. During Obama, 6 1/2.

    European nations range from 5 to 8.

  4. #104
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    During Reagan, 3 1/2. During Bush, 5. During Obama, 6 1/2.

    European nations range from 5 to 8.
    That much variation?? What about Clinton? What is the source of the variation?

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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    More than Reagan, less than Bush. Generally, after Carter the number gets progressively higher.

    Clinton is a little higher on the domestic scale, but he was damn near a 1 in foreign policy, which was fine by me. I wish Clinton could run American foreign policy for the next hundred years.

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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    People who would trade liberty for security deserve neither. When we can create a society that allows for zero or near-zero instances like you two mentioned and not be an oppressive, totalitarian police-state, I'll jump on board. However, I'm not going to live like an automaton as a trade-off for absolute certainty that the big, bad, evil corporation is going to slip arsenic in my Manwich.
    That's extreme. We have nothing akin to a totalitarian police state in this country. I agree with megaprogman, the FDA has gone too far in some instances, it is not perfect, but it is hardly totalitarian. Look at the drugs that made it through and were then pulled from the market.

    1. Vioxx - I'm sure you're familiar with this infamous anti-inflammatory. Merck had to pull Vioxx off the global market in 2004 after a clinical study demonstrated that it significantly increased the risk of cardiovascular "events" such as heart attacks and strokes.

    2. Bextra - Like Vioxx, this prescription painkiller caused an increased risk of heart attack and stroke. Pfizer pulled it off the market in the U.S. a year after the Vioxx fiasco in 2005.

    3. Cylert - Abbott pulled the Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) drug off the U.S. market in 2005 after the FDA discovered 13 cases of liver failure. Turns out that Cylert patients have as much as a 25 percent higher rate of liver failure compared to the general population.

    4. Baycol - This cholesterol-lowering drug caused users to suffer from a much higher rate of rhabdomyolysis, a debilitating muscle ailment that can be fatal. There were 31 reported deaths that were directly linked to Baycol, and it was yanked off the market in the U.S. in 2001.

    5. Palladone - This slow-release narcotic painkiller by Purdue Pharma was pulled off the market in the U.S. in 2005 because it was found to cause side effects like depression and even coma when mixed with alcohol.

    Merck knew of the risks of Vioxx in 2000, yet it wasn't pulled until 2004. Human nature came into play. They covered it up and tried to reformulate.

    If the FDS were totalitarian, this would not have happened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I don't find libertarianism to be that extreme. There are still plenty of regulations...just not nearly as many as now. Let me put this on a scale of 1 to 10. If 1 meant martial law akin to the "wild, wild west" and 10 to be a living embodiment of 1984, I'd want about a 3. Enough to keep the status quo, make sure people's basic needs are taken care of and that laws are met and adhered to, but far from a state that needs to be in your life with unnecessary concerns. And as a self-avowed social Darwinist, if that means the weakest link can't keep up, so be it. A stable, prosperous society is well worth the price of a few pukes who can't make it or, most likely, don't want to try to the point of making it.
    I'm curious about how much regulation you are talking about? As I noted in a previous post, I have had many debates with libertarians and when it came to regulation, they wanted none whatsoever. Anecdotal, I know, but could you explain what you are comfortable with?

    Environmental?
    Banking/Financial?
    Food?
    Consumer Protection?
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  7. #107
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    More than Reagan, less than Bush. Generally, after Carter the number gets progressively higher.

    Clinton is a little higher on the domestic scale, but he was damn near a 1 in foreign policy, which was fine by me. I wish Clinton could run American foreign policy for the next hundred years.
    I am not cracking into foreign policy, because we will disagree pretty strongly and it is off topic.

    By why the range from 3.5 to 6.5 in 30 years? Has regulation increased so much or is it a perceived shift in entitlement mentality or something?

  8. #108
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    That's extreme. We have nothing akin to a totalitarian police state in this country. I agree with megaprogman, the FDA has gone too far in some instances, it is not perfect, but it is hardly totalitarian. Look at the drugs that made it through and were then pulled from the market.

    1. Vioxx - I'm sure you're familiar with this infamous anti-inflammatory. Merck had to pull Vioxx off the global market in 2004 after a clinical study demonstrated that it significantly increased the risk of cardiovascular "events" such as heart attacks and strokes.

    2. Bextra - Like Vioxx, this prescription painkiller caused an increased risk of heart attack and stroke. Pfizer pulled it off the market in the U.S. a year after the Vioxx fiasco in 2005.

    3. Cylert - Abbott pulled the Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) drug off the U.S. market in 2005 after the FDA discovered 13 cases of liver failure. Turns out that Cylert patients have as much as a 25 percent higher rate of liver failure compared to the general population.

    4. Baycol - This cholesterol-lowering drug caused users to suffer from a much higher rate of rhabdomyolysis, a debilitating muscle ailment that can be fatal. There were 31 reported deaths that were directly linked to Baycol, and it was yanked off the market in the U.S. in 2001.

    5. Palladone - This slow-release narcotic painkiller by Purdue Pharma was pulled off the market in the U.S. in 2005 because it was found to cause side effects like depression and even coma when mixed with alcohol.

    Merck knew of the risks of Vioxx in 2000, yet it wasn't pulled until 2004. Human nature came into play. They covered it up and tried to reformulate.

    If the FDS were totalitarian, this would not have happened.
    Why weren't the people who covered up the information prosecuted?
    The FDA serves as a protection arm for pharmaceutical companies.
    Laws have been specifically crafted to allow corporations to avoid prosecution and instead they pay a fine or are sued in civil court.

    What would of happened if an individual not in a corporation did those things?
    They would be in jail right now.

    When many libertarians talk about less regulation, we are talking about ending special rules for these companies.

    Corporations love regulations.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Why weren't the people who covered up the information prosecuted?
    The FDA serves as a protection arm for pharmaceutical companies.
    Laws have been specifically crafted to allow corporations to avoid prosecution and instead they pay a fine or are sued in civil court.

    What would of happened if an individual not in a corporation did those things?
    They would be in jail right now.

    When many libertarians talk about less regulation, we are talking about ending special rules for these companies.

    Corporations love regulations.
    I agree that corporate personhood should be abolished. However, how many more deaths and injuries would have happened if we had to wait for a company to finish a trial before these things were pulled off the shelf? Which is what would happen if we did not have a regulatory agency.

  10. #110
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    Re: Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I agree that corporate personhood should be abolished. However, how many more deaths and injuries would have happened if we had to wait for a company to finish a trial before these things were pulled off the shelf? Which is what would happen if we did not have a regulatory agency.
    It's a zero sum game then, I have more examples of regulations benefiting corporations more than the consumer.
    Toys, environment, finance, the list goes on and on.

    Until people separate what politicians say a bill does and actually read what it does, we will continue to regulate endlessly.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    óAdam Shepard

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