View Poll Results: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded

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  • I am for waterboarding Al Quaeda and Hutaree terrorists

    8 19.05%
  • I am for waterboarding Al Quaeda terrorists but not Hutaree terrorists

    4 9.52%
  • I am for waterboarding Hutaree terrorists but not Al Quaeda terrorists

    2 4.76%
  • I am against waterboarding Al Quaeda and Hutaree terrorists

    28 66.67%
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Thread: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

  1. #151
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    These are all valid points, but they focus on practicality and not the ethics of it, which is what my point was based on. The point is, can we really say that torture is NEVER ethically/legally justified? Because that's the idea I am getting from Catz.
    In my opinion, there are scenarios in which torture might be justified. They are rare, and if an agent of the government engages in that act, he/she should immediately submit himself to government authorities to be scrutinized for criminal behavior. That agent should then be investigated for wrong-doing and his actions upheld or punished.

    This is exactly the standard that is used in an officer-involved shooting/use of force, fwiw. It's a well-tested method of handling acts by law enforcement that may be an ethical violation.

    We do not want, as a country, our government at the highest levels to be setting a precedent where torture is used as a standard MO. And yet, that's exactly where we have found ourselves.

    In other words, I want the agents of our government and elected officials to be EXTREMELY WORRIED about unjustified acts of torture, and their criminal culpability in such acts, to the point that they would ONLY utilize these tactics in the most dire of circumstances.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 04-07-10 at 10:39 PM.

  2. #152
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    I'm genuinely curious as to what you would do in such a situation. Suppose we captured a terrorist cell leader and on his laptop were communique giving the go ahead for an attack some time in the near future, but he refused to talk. What would you do?
    IF and when that situation occurs, it is a special circumstance that would require special permission from the highest levels. It is NOT something that should be done routinely.

    And sadly, it WAS done, routinely, with certain prisoners who did not have that sort of actionable information.

    Some died...and they were merely suspects, NOT CONVICTED TERRORISTS.

  3. #153
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    IF and when that situation occurs, it is a special circumstance that would require special permission from the highest levels. It is NOT something that should be done routinely.
    I don't think anyone wants the government to make torturing people a matter of routine. Most people just think it should be an option.

    And sadly, it WAS done, routinely, with certain prisoners who did not have that sort of actionable information.

    Some died...and they were merely suspects, NOT CONVICTED TERRORISTS.
    That's regrettable, and it should be mitigated as much as possible, but collateral damage is inherent to warfare. Innocent people get killed by predator drones all the time.

  4. #154
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    I don't think anyone wants the government to make torturing people a matter of routine. Most people just think it should be an option.
    IT should be an option that occurs once in a century. Not 30 or 40 times in the last 10 years.

  5. #155
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toothpicvic View Post
    Proof please? And how do you define "torture"? I don't consider waterboarding torture since it does not cause permanent physical harm.
    What do you mean proof? Prove it's ethical. Prove that violating the base rights of any human is in any way shape or form a high moral act. Can't? That's right you can't. Because you'll be able to come up with legal justifications, and I said that it can at times be legally justified. But infringing upon the base of life, liberty, and property is never ethical, it's never moral; it's always a bad act.

    And for torture, I count things which are torturous, such as waterboarding. No one of any amount of intellectual honesty would ever claim that waterboarding isn't torture.
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  6. #156
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    IT should be an option that occurs once in a century. Not 30 or 40 times in the last 10 years.
    Why are you placing an arbitrary time frame and frequency on its usage? If it can be justified under certain circumstances, then it should be an option in those circumstances all of the time. The only question becomes, what are the circumstances under which it is justifiable. We also have to define "torture", so we know when it is occurring.

  7. #157
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    Why are you placing an arbitrary time frame and frequency on its usage?
    I'm suggesting not on a timeframe, but that it should be so rare that it is the exception, not the rule, because the circumstances in which it would be justified are extremely unlikely to occur.

    We also have to define "torture", so we know when it is occurring.
    This was already done, following WWII. Maybe we should start following international law, as we used to do.

  8. #158
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I'm suggesting not on a timeframe, but that it should be so rare that it is the exception, not the rule, because the circumstances in which it would be justified are extremely unlikely to occur.



    This was already done, following WWII. Maybe we should start following international law, as we used to do.
    What specific provision of the Geneva Conventions are we violating?

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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    What specific provision of the Geneva Conventions are we violating?
    What was the penalty for use of waterboarding after WWII?

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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    What was the penalty for use of waterboarding after WWII?
    Unlawful combatants are not afforded the same consideration as lawful ones.

    Can you show me the specific provision to which you are referring or not?

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