View Poll Results: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded

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  • I am for waterboarding Al Quaeda and Hutaree terrorists

    8 19.05%
  • I am for waterboarding Al Quaeda terrorists but not Hutaree terrorists

    4 9.52%
  • I am for waterboarding Hutaree terrorists but not Al Quaeda terrorists

    2 4.76%
  • I am against waterboarding Al Quaeda and Hutaree terrorists

    28 66.67%
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Thread: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

  1. #141
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    For one thing, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is non-binding, and most of the U.N. follows less of it than we do.

    That said, let's say that we have good reason to believe that a captured terrorist (not representing any nation and therefore not subject to international treaties regarding torture) knows about an impending terrorist plot on the same scale as 9/11, and he is not giving us information on it. If it takes surrender before captured enemies regain their rights, hasn't the terrorist refused to surrender knowledge which he knows puts us in harm's way? And even if not, are we really going to let thousands of citizens die just to make sure that some high ideal is "universal"?
    K, but how often does the 24 scenario play out? It's an incredibly unlikely probability. Mostly, you'll probably have someone who doesn't know, you may have someone who is innocent. So you're going to authorize this broad base torture regime because maybe sometime it's possible that it could possibly almost work out in the scenario you laid out. Improbable and unlikely scenarios I do not believe make good basis for broad sweeping policy.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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  2. #142
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    The scenario that Dav has described was NEVER the case with the people that we tortured, and yet, we tortured them anyway. Yay us. I'm sure Thomas Jefferson would be incredibly proud.

  3. #143
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Oh, I see. So, we don't believe that human beings have natural rights? Or they only have them when it's convenient for us?

    Either we are true to who we are, whether it is easy or difficult, or we aren't.
    I frankly find the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to be a bit silly anyways. Provisions which say that forcing kids to go to school is somehow essential to human rights, and welfare benefits and free education are natural human rights, don't really sit well with me.

    Anyways, evil has and always will be done in war. It's a question of minimizing the evil. Yes, it's bad if we torture one guy (who was trying to kill us), but what if (hypothetically) doing so would prevent a terrorist attack that would kill thousands of civilians? I frankly find the latter to be much more evil than the former.

    Given that this DID NOT OCCUR in the instances of individuals that we tortured, your hyperbole is duly noted.
    It was a hypothetical. Do you have an answer?
    Last edited by Dav; 04-07-10 at 08:10 PM.

  4. #144
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    What if in the midst of torturing men suspected of being a terrorist but was just in the wrong place at the wrong time or have no knowledge, a real terrorists blow up a building costing 1,000 of lives which could have been prevented had we been investigating other potential threats instead of wasting our time torturing people who had no information or were innocent?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #145
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    K, but how often does the 24 scenario play out? It's an incredibly unlikely probability. Mostly, you'll probably have someone who doesn't know, you may have someone who is innocent. So you're going to authorize this broad base torture regime because maybe sometime it's possible that it could possibly almost work out in the scenario you laid out. Improbable and unlikely scenarios I do not believe make good basis for broad sweeping policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    The scenario that Dav has described was NEVER the case with the people that we tortured, and yet, we tortured them anyway. Yay us. I'm sure Thomas Jefferson would be incredibly proud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    What if in the midst of torturing men suspected of being a terrorist but was just in the wrong place at the wrong time or have no knowledge, a real terrorists blow up a building costing 1,000 of lives which could have been prevented had we been investigating other potential threats instead of wasting our time torturing people who had no information or were innocent?
    These are all valid points, but they focus on practicality and not the ethics of it, which is what my point was based on. The point is, can we really say that torture is NEVER ethically/legally justified? Because that's the idea I am getting from Catz.

  6. #146
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    In the context that we know everything already, then perhaps it can be legally justified. Though the torture may not be needed at that point. It's never ethical.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    I once posted a study that shows torture makes the brain delusional, basically you can't trust the information it produces. I'll try to find it again.

  8. #148
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Oh, I see. So, we don't believe that human beings have natural rights? Or they only have them when it's convenient for us?
    No one has the right to purposely target innocent civilians or withhold information that could be used to save them.

    Given that this DID NOT OCCUR in the instances of individuals that we tortured, your hyperbole is duly noted.
    Why does that matter? Before 9/11 no one had flown two jetliners into the World Trade Centers. Just because something hasn't occurred doesn't mean we should assume it won't happen.

    I'm genuinely curious as to what you would do in such a situation. Suppose we captured a terrorist cell leader and on his laptop were communique giving the go ahead for an attack some time in the near future, but he refused to talk. What would you do?

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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's never ethical.
    Proof please? And how do you define "torture"? I don't consider waterboarding torture since it does not cause permanent physical harm.

  10. #150
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toothpicvic View Post
    Proof please? And how do you define "torture"? I don't consider waterboarding torture since it does not cause permanent physical harm.
    The U.S. has tried war criminals for torture after they waterboarded U.S. prisoners of war.

    Your definition of torture is not the one anybody else uses.

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