View Poll Results: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded

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  • I am for waterboarding Al Quaeda and Hutaree terrorists

    8 19.05%
  • I am for waterboarding Al Quaeda terrorists but not Hutaree terrorists

    4 9.52%
  • I am for waterboarding Hutaree terrorists but not Al Quaeda terrorists

    2 4.76%
  • I am against waterboarding Al Quaeda and Hutaree terrorists

    28 66.67%
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Thread: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

  1. #131
    Educator Alvin T. Grey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    You forgot this part where it defines the "jurisdiction" as people not in the US, are not in said jurisdiction.
    Jurisdiction doesn't always equal geography. It includes any circumstance where a person finds themselves in the care of the US Government.
    For example P.O.Ws could be said to be in your jurisdiction even though it is illegal to ship them out of theatre and you may not be the soverign power of the territory they are detained in.

    In the vernacular, once some bugger gets their collar felt, you can't stick the boot in.

    Likewise if I step abord a visiting ship in port I am technically subject to US laws and the US Constitution.

  2. #132
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    Jurisdiction doesn't always equal geography. It includes any circumstance where a person finds themselves in the care of the US Government.
    For example P.O.Ws could be said to be in your jurisdiction even though it is illegal to ship them out of theatre and you may not be the soverign power of the territory they are detained in.

    In the vernacular, once some bugger gets their collar felt, you can't stick the boot in.

    Likewise if I step abord a visiting ship in port I am technically subject to US laws and the US Constitution.
    Exactly.

    And as noted before this passage about "jurisdiction" in the 14th amendment has nothing to do with rights anyway, only the defiinition of citizenship.

  3. #133
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."

    There wasn't even an America when those words were written. Nor was there a constitution. Those words served as the primary justification for CREATING AMERICA. They are a foundational concept of this nation since its inception in July of 1776. They are a foundational concept that our founding fathers drafted and signed off on before declaring war on England to win our freedom. They are based upon the concept of natural rights, as clearly articulated in the philosophy of John Locke, and have served as the foundational justification for democratic nations around the world to free themselves from monarchy and tyranny.

    A little light reading on natural rights:



    Jefferson's phrase, justifying the separation of the colonies from England, was later borrowed by France:

    Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And, by the member nations of the UN for international human rights treaties.

    International human rights instruments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Furthermore, Jeffersons words were a foundational concept of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which we and other nations signed off on in 1948.

    Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The natural rights of human beings is such a fundamental concept in America that I really do not understand how ANY AMERICAN can attempt to justify the use of torture for any reason.

    To be frank, denying the fundamental human rights of any other person on this planet is, or should be, ANATHEMA to an American. It is the most basic and repugnant betrayal of who we are, as a nation.
    The three rights Jefferson listed were "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". By killing foreign forces, the act of war itself deprives people (non-citizens) of their right to life. I know you're not a pacifist, so how do you justify that?

  4. #134
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Do people outside of the U.S. have natural rights?
    If they do, then the moment they turn a gun on us, we are under no obligation to respect them. Evidence: we shoot back.

  5. #135
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    Jurisdiction doesn't always equal geography. It includes any circumstance where a person finds themselves in the care of the US Government.
    For example P.O.Ws could be said to be in your jurisdiction even though it is illegal to ship them out of theatre and you may not be the soverign power of the territory they are detained in.

    In the vernacular, once some bugger gets their collar felt, you can't stick the boot in.

    Likewise if I step abord a visiting ship in port I am technically subject to US laws and the US Constitution.




    Why did we need a GITMO then?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  6. #136
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    The three rights Jefferson listed were "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". By killing foreign forces, the act of war itself deprives people (non-citizens) of their right to life. I know you're not a pacifist, so how do you justify that?
    The act of war, while regrettable, is sometimes the inevitable response to aggression by other nations. We can't stop people from being aggressive towards us (though I tend to believe that firepower can be a great deterrent, as witnessed by the cold war). However, once an enemy combatant has surrendered, that person is no longer engaging in actions against us, and retains their human rights. We may hold them, but according to the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, which we signed in 1948, we cannot torture them.

  7. #137
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Why did we need a GITMO then?
    Many of us would tell you that we didn't, in fact, NEED a GITMO. It was a convenient dodge for a government with a slipshod commitment to constitutional and human rights principles.

  8. #138
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    If they do, then the moment they turn a gun on us, we are under no obligation to respect them. Evidence: we shoot back.
    Shooting back is one thing. Torture is something we agreed, internationally, not to do. Eleanor Roosevelt, for that matter, is the one who helped to draft the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was largely inspired by the atrocities of WWII.

  9. #139
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    The act of war, while regrettable, is sometimes the inevitable response to aggression by other nations. We can't stop people from being aggressive towards us (though I tend to believe that firepower can be a great deterrent, as witnessed by the cold war). However, once an enemy combatant has surrendered, that person is no longer engaging in actions against us, and retains their human rights. We may hold them, but according to the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, which we signed in 1948, we cannot torture them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Shooting back is one thing. Torture is something we agreed, internationally, not to do. Eleanor Roosevelt, for that matter, is the one who helped to draft the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was largely inspired by the atrocities of WWII.
    For one thing, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is non-binding, and most of the U.N. follows less of it than we do.

    That said, let's say that we have good reason to believe that a captured terrorist (not representing any nation and therefore not subject to international treaties regarding torture) knows about an impending terrorist plot on the same scale as 9/11, and he is not giving us information on it. If it takes surrender before captured enemies regain their rights, hasn't the terrorist refused to surrender knowledge which he knows puts us in harm's way? And even if not, are we really going to let thousands of citizens die just to make sure that some high ideal is "universal"?

  10. #140
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    Re: Should the Hutaree militia be waterboarded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    For one thing, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is non-binding, and most of the U.N. follows less of it than we do.
    Oh, I see. So, we don't believe that human beings have natural rights? Or they only have them when it's convenient for us?

    Either we are true to who we are, whether it is easy or difficult, or we aren't.

    That said, let's say that we have good reason to believe that a captured terrorist (not representing any nation and therefore not subject to international treaties regarding torture) knows about an impending terrorist plot on the same scale as 9/11, and he is not giving us information on it. If it takes surrender before captured enemies regain their rights, hasn't the terrorist refused to surrender knowledge which he knows puts us in harm's way? And even if not, are we really going to let thousands of citizens die just to make sure that some high ideal is "universal"?
    Given that this DID NOT OCCUR in the instances of individuals that we tortured, your hyperbole is duly noted.

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