View Poll Results: Which do you Prefer

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  • A purely Socialist economy

    5 6.25%
  • An economy with more Socialism then Capitalism

    10 12.50%
  • An economy with equal Socialist and Capitalist ideas

    12 15.00%
  • An economy with more Capitalism then Socialism

    34 42.50%
  • A purely Capitalist society

    19 23.75%
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Thread: Socialism vs. Capitalism

  1. #121
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The idea that you or I have the power to succeed based on our own innovation and energy is right in line with the evolution of species.
    The idea is there. Socialism is needed to make it a reality.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Textbook argumentum ad populum.

    Next!
    More like textbook avoidance of discussing the topic by constantly claiming a fallacy. It's one of the oldest bail out moves on the internet forums. Be bold, be different --- discuss the topic.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  3. #123
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    More like textbook avoidance of discussing the topic by constantly claiming a fallacy. It's one of the oldest bail out moves on the internet forums. Be bold, be different --- discuss the topic.
    There's nothing further to discuss. Her definition of socialism is based on what people believe, not what it actually is. My entire argument was that her definition was invalid, and she proved it very blatantly by appealing to popular belief. So she actually proved me right, which means that the discussion is over.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty
    If you had asked a feudal lord whether the emerging merchant class could ever come to dominate the political world he would have said that it was contrary to the laws of God, human nature and common sense. In reality of course, said Feudal lord was a member of an obsolete class at the head of an obsolete mode of production. One which had long ago ceased to increase productivity, creativity and freedom but had become a detriment to it.
    Not only would the Feudal lord have felt that the impending rise of Capitalism was impossible, unnatural, and against the laws of God and human nature, but so did most of the working class at the time and even most of the merchant class that would become modern capitalists.
    The same is true of Capitalism today. It is obsolete. It hinders production, creativity and human freedom. But just as was the case with Feudalism, those born and raised within it generally assume it to be natural and permanent, and superior alternatives to it to be impossible.
    You act as if capitalism is a 20th century invention. Capitalism has been around sime time immemorial and has just evolved through the progression of man. Be it feudalism, mercantilism, corporatism, or pure laissez-faire free market, you're not talking about a recent invention. The concept that someone can be king of the mountain is indeed a driving force not just in economics but in almost any aspect of society and mankind-driven philosophy. Nobody strives to be "equal"; nobody wants to be just adequate - at least not on a large-scale level. Capitalism drives itself because of the simple and perpetual Darwinian theories it exudes. To be the man, you have to beat the man - and if you ever fall from grace, someone will be there that's bigger and better. Communism and socialism both strive to stifle the collective masses and not reward any sort of ambition or independent thought, which is the innate reason why it fails universally. The Soviet Union failed because it was broke, period. Its economy was absolutely stagnate, and could not compete against a free-market juggernaut.

    If you think capitalism causes a lot of ruckus and in-fighting, I challenge you to find a significant population who think they really embrace communistic values. You'll find them revert mentally and physically to almost a carnal level, and when it's time to back the talk up with action, it's nowhere to be seen.

  5. #125
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Capitalism has been around sime time immemorial and has just evolved through the progression of man. Be it feudalism, mercantilism, corporatism, or pure laissez-faire free market, you're not talking about a recent invention.
    The labour-process, resolved as above into its simple elementary factors, is human action with a view to the production of use-values, appropriation of natural substances to human requirements; it is the necessary condition for effecting exchange of matter between man and Nature; it is the everlasting Nature-imposed condition of human existence, and therefore is independent of every social phase of that existence, or rather, is common to every such phase. It was, therefore, not necessary to represent our labourer in connexion with other labourers; man and his labour on one side, Nature and its materials on the other, sufficed. As the taste of the porridge does not tell you who grew the oats, no more does this simple process tell you of itself what are the social conditions under which it is taking place, whether under the slave-owner’s brutal lash, or the anxious eye of the capitalist, whether Cincinnatus carries it on in tilling his modest farm or a savage in killing wild animals with stones. [9]

    ...

    [9] By a wonderful feat of logical acumen, Colonel Torrens has discovered, in this stone of the savage the origin of capital. “In the first stone which he [the savage] flings at the wild animal he pursues, in the first stick that he seizes to strike down the fruit which hangs above his reach, we see the appropriation of one article for the purpose of aiding in the acquisition of another, and thus discover the origin of capital.” (R. Torrens: “An Essay on the Production of Wealth,” &c., pp. 70-71.)

    Economic Manuscripts: Capital Vol. I - Chapter Seven

    Emphasis obviously mine.

    EDIT: Your definition of capitalism is laughably absurd; it's so vague that it's completely meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    The Soviet Union failed because it was broke, period.
    Uh, nah. It's a little more complicated than that.

    If you think capitalism causes a lot of ruckus and in-fighting, I challenge you to find a significant population who think they really embrace communistic values.
    Not an argument.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 04-01-10 at 09:46 PM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  6. #126
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I'm working for the benefit of me. If the corporation happens to benefit because I am part of the workforce, they benefit as well, from having a good employee. I'm not there to make the corporation better. I'm there to make my life better. Sometimes, both things happen, but it's my life that I wish to improve.

    The way I view it is they are fortunate to have me for an employee. I have good credentials and am very good at my job. They cannot replace me easily.
    All of that may be true. But you are still working for the benefit of the corporation. You are an at-will commodity for them. As long as you are producing for them you are of value to them. If you were not benefitting them, they would terminate you without any thought.
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  7. #127
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    There's nothing further to discuss. Her definition of socialism is based on what people believe, not what it actually is. My entire argument was that her definition was invalid, and she proved it very blatantly by appealing to popular belief. So she actually proved me right, which means that the discussion is over.
    Well done.

  8. #128
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    The labour-process, resolved as above into its simple elementary factors, is human action with a view to the production of use-values, appropriation of natural substances to human requirements; it is the necessary condition for effecting exchange of matter between man and Nature; it is the everlasting Nature-imposed condition of human existence, and therefore is independent of every social phase of that existence, or rather, is common to every such phase. It was, therefore, not necessary to represent our labourer in connexion with other labourers; man and his labour on one side, Nature and its materials on the other, sufficed. As the taste of the porridge does not tell you who grew the oats, no more does this simple process tell you of itself what are the social conditions under which it is taking place, whether under the slave-owner’s brutal lash, or the anxious eye of the capitalist, whether Cincinnatus carries it on in tilling his modest farm or a savage in killing wild animals with stones.
    Really? This is a counterpoint?

    I know you want to use humanism as some sort of driving and connecting force when you put together simple economics and tendencies of man, but this proves nothing. It's essentially a big "que sera, sera" with regards to the evolution of market economies. It's a giant red herring, and essentially along the lines of a distraction point by attempting to pit "nature" against an obvious progression of human thinking. Economics acts through human action, not feelings, speculation, and wishful thinking by those who sit the sidelines and ponder stupid crap.

    That's why Marx loses. He'd have been a great capitalist if he kept his head out of the clouds and tried to predict human action instead of manipulate it.

    Uh, nah. It's a little more complicated than that.
    Not by much. It may fork and branch off at places but all roads ultimately lead back here.

    Your definition of capitalism is laughably absurd; it's so vague that it's completely meaningless.
    I'm sure you believe that, just like I truly believe that if a "Marxist" ever actually sat down and read things like The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital (which I have), you'd have much fewer angst-ridden 15 year olds violently masturbating to posters of Lenin and Trotsky in their parents' basements.

  9. #129
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    You act as if capitalism is a 20th century invention.
    It is! Almost any capitalist will and must admit this. Fuedalism existed. It was not capitalism. Slavery as a mode of production existed, it was not capitalism. Primitive agriculture as a mode of production was not capitalism.

    My dear Gipper, that was nothing short of adorable. Thank you for illustrating the other side of my point. Whereas other posters are only so immersed in and defined by capitalism as to project it permanently into the future you take it a step further and project it backwards into the past in spite of the fact that there is a historical record available to all of us which thankfully can indicate conclusively, in depth, or merely even at a glance that your idea is terribly silly.
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  10. #130
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    My entire argument was that her definition was invalid, and she proved it very blatantly by appealing to popular belief. So she actually proved me right, which means that the discussion is over.
    Well, it means that your discussion is over with me, but there's plenty of others here who don't mind putting forth their ideas, opinions, and thoughts on a wide range of subjects. It's really not a pissing contest for me. It's fun and it makes some of us think about and question our views.
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