View Poll Results: Which do you Prefer

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  • A purely Socialist economy

    5 6.25%
  • An economy with more Socialism then Capitalism

    10 12.50%
  • An economy with equal Socialist and Capitalist ideas

    12 15.00%
  • An economy with more Capitalism then Socialism

    34 42.50%
  • A purely Capitalist society

    19 23.75%
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Thread: Socialism vs. Capitalism

  1. #111
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Either it can exist or it cannot, but it cannot be both.
    God, you go right on to contradict yourself in the same post!
    "Ownership" by the workers can exist. Power cannot. There's a few people who could manage themselves well enough to live in a socialist or communist society (with actual shared power). Most cannot. In a socialist country (example former USSR), there was shared ownership, but the power rested with a few.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  2. #112
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    "Ownership" by the workers can exist. Power cannot. There's a few people who could manage themselves well enough to live in a socialist or communist society (with actual shared power). Most cannot. In a socialist country (example former USSR), there was shared ownership, but the power rested with a few.
    And that's what any socialist society would necessarily have to devolve into.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #113
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    The definition of socialism is working class power.
    But in the real world of experience, the people have no power. They work for the state, they have shared ownership in theory, but they are ruled by a central power figure(s). If socialism was such a great concept, the USSR would not have folded. It doesn't work.
    If all people were equal in attitude, willingness, ability, and agreed to work as a unit for the good of society, it could succeed. Because people aren't equal, it cannot succeed. No matter what one wants to believe, we are not all equal, primarily because we cannot be. There will always be those who willingly sacrifice, and there will always be those who are unwilling to pull their share of the load. This will always produce ill will, and where there is ill will, there is no common goal. Human nature (and nature in general) does not allow for a beehive mentality to work in the world of humans.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  4. #114
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    If the workers have no power then it cannot be socialism. Stop trying to split hairs on an already wrong argument. It's much deeper than who owns the property.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  5. #115
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    In reality, in socialism the workers have no power. The state has power and the workers are like bees in a hive. If we were like bees and all willingly sacrificed for the good of the colony, it might work, but humans are a wee bit evolved compared to honeybees.
    If you had asked a feudal lord whether the emerging merchant class could ever come to dominate the political world he would have said that it was contrary to the laws of God, human nature and common sense. In reality of course, said Feudal lord was a member of an obsolete class at the head of an obsolete mode of production. One which had long ago ceased to increase productivity, creativity and freedom but had become a detriment to it.
    Not only would the Feudal lord have felt that the impending rise of Capitalism was impossible, unnatural, and against the laws of God and human nature, but so did most of the working class at the time and even most of the merchant class that would become modern capitalists.
    The same is true of Capitalism today. It is obsolete. It hinders production, creativity and human freedom. But just as was the case with Feudalism, those born and raised within it generally assume it to be natural and permanent, and superior alternatives to it to be impossible.
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
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  6. #116
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    If the workers have no power then it cannot be socialism.
    Tell that to the Russians who were adults prior to the fall of the union. Find the ones, who were not "officials" who thought or believed they had any power whatsoever. I'd love to visit with them, because my experience with all the Russians I know is quite the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    It's much deeper than who owns the property.
    Yes, it is.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  7. #117
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie
    Tell that to the Russians who were adults prior to the fall of the union. Find the ones, who were not "officials" who thought or believed they had any power whatsoever. I'd love to visit with them, because my experience with all the Russians I know is quite the opposite.
    I don't know if you're just incredibly dense or what, but I'm arguing that the USSR wasn't socialist. And so I don't see at all how this statement is a response to what you quoted in any way whatsoever.

    You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing that it was, so you're basically arguing against yourself here.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  8. #118
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    The same is true of Capitalism today. It is obsolete. It hinders production, creativity and human freedom.
    Not at all. Capitalism promotes innovation and creativity. The idea that you or I have the power to succeed based on our own innovation and energy is right in line with the evolution of species.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  9. #119
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I don't know if you're just incredibly dense or what, but I'm arguing that the USSR wasn't socialist.
    They certainly believe they were.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  10. #120
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    Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie
    They certainly believe they were.
    Textbook argumentum ad populum.

    Next!
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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