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What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?

What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?


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Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

reality sucks doesn't it

a background check that is not enforced when someone is caught trying to buy a gun illegally is a waste of time
What does a past or current law, improperly enforced, have to do with my hypothetical idea as to what a proper law would be?

And reality has always sucked.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

What does a past or current law, improperly enforced, have to do with my hypothetical idea as to what a proper law would be?

And reality has always sucked.

Hypothetical?

background checks are already the law of the land
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Hypothetical?

background checks are already the law of the land
But my ideas as to how they should be applied are hypothetical.

Unless somewhere things are done exactly as I described...
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Only in that to avoid the background check, they would have to find someone selling weapons illegally, which, depending on the situation, might be more difficult than walking into the local gun store.
Yes.

Interesting.

I am not contending that a background check would keep felons from acquiring a gun, as that would be a blatantly false contention.

I am contending that a background check would accomplish the following:
  • Prevent convicted felons from purchasing a firearm from a legal vendor of such.
  • Protect said legal vendor from potential lawsuits leveled against them by persons who were harmed by a firearm purchased in their store by a convicted felon.
  • Prevent convicted felons (except the really stupid ones) from attempting to purchase weapons from legal vendors of such, as they know it would be impossible, due to said background check.
That said, a potential positive (a bit of a stretch, perhaps) would be that if there were not background checks allowed, cops could stake out gun shops and arrest a convicted felon who purchased a firearm there...



You know we already do that, right? It's called NICS (nat'l instant-check system). Been in place for quite some time now. Proven effects on gun crime to this point: None. Very very few prosecutions of felons caught attempting to buy from a legal dealer, either.
 
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Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Eh, I don't have the patience. Most of those things came from my legal and poli sci requirements in college, fortunately I had phenomenal instructors who not only facilitated knowledge but critical thinking skills.

Truely awesome.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

I would support registration of weapons and especially bans on certain weapons, unless people here are genuinely ok with American citizens running around with warheads, nukes, or anti-aircraft guns.

I'm ok with having those things, I just don't want the rest of you to have them. :)
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

you being stupid again? it prevented nothing.

Stupid? I was just repeating what YOU said: it prevented ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND OR MORE FELONS FROM BUYING GUNS.

Was that stupid?
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

reality sucks doesn't it

a background check that is not enforced when someone is caught trying to buy a gun illegally is a waste of time

It was enforced. It prevented them from buying a gun.

Also, I did some searching and saw several references to hundreds of prosecutions under the Brady Law, not 12. I heard your 12 number a loooong time ago. I think it's way way out of date.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

I was thinking of a database containing information about all violent criminals (I assume something along those lines exists already), which the ID of the potential firearm purchaser could be quickly compared with to ensure a violent criminal was not trying to legally purchase a firearm.

How could that database be used against those who legally own firearms?

All a database of that sort would do is force criminals to purchase weapons from illegal sources.

All it would do is make it more difficult for a criminal to acquire a weapon.
Background checks, when required by the government, are a form of prior restraint. Constitutionally, prior restraint is a no-no.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Yes, but it prevented ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND OR MORE FELONS FROM BUYING GUNS.

That was the point of the law, to prevent ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND OR MORE FELONS FROM BUYING GUNS.
Last I heard, it was ~100,000 stops. Since 1994.
Not all - not even most - were felons.
Many were due to an error of some sort and the purchase was later allowed.

And of those felons that were stopped - how many were prosecuted?
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

It was enforced. It prevented them from buying a gun.
No.... An attepmt by a felon to buy a gun is itself a felony.
Thus, for every felon stopped, there is a felony to prosecute.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

No.... An attepmt by a felon to buy a gun is itself a felony.
Thus, for every felon stopped, there is a felony to prosecute.

But it still stopped millions of felons from buying guns. That is the point of the law. To say the law isn't being fully enforced (which is debatable) does not in the least mean it is ineffective in doing what it is supposed to do - keeping guns out of the hands of those who aren't supposed to have them.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

But it still stopped millions of felons from buying guns.
Now its "millions'? Support this.

That is the point of the law. To say the law isn't being fully enforced (which is debatable) does not in the least mean it is ineffective in doing what it is supposed to do
Regardless of intent, there's no sense in having a law if you arent going to enforce it.

Never mind that background check is a form of prior restraint and therefore violates the Constitution.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Now its "millions'? Support this.

Oops, I misspoke.

Regardless of intent, there's no sense in having a law if you arent going to enforce it.

It IS being enforced.

If a cop stands at a corner and stops people from jaywalking, yet hands out no tickets for those who start to jaywalk, that's still enforcing the law, and it is serving an essential public safety purpose, which is the intent of the law.

Never mind that background check is a form of prior restraint and therefore violates the Constitution.

"Prior restraint"? I've never heard that term used to describe anything but freedom of the press.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Oops, I misspoke.
I'd say. How many felons have been stopped?

It IS being enforced.
It is?
What % of the felons denied a sale have been prosecuted?

"Prior restraint"? I've never heard that term used to describe anything but freedom of the press.
Prior restraint is a state restriction on the exercise of a right based on the possibility that you might be doing something illegal.

Background checks are a state restriction on the exercise of the right to arms based on the possibility that you might be doing something illegal.

Thus, prior restraint.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Prior restraint is a state restriction on the exercise of a right based on the possibility that you might be doing something illegal.

Background checks are a state restriction on the exercise of the right to arms based on the possibility that you might be doing something illegal.

Thus, prior restraint.
Careful Goobie, he thinks each right has individual sub sets of rules for some reason, you might confuse him with the simplicity that is rights.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

It is?
What % of the felons denied a sale have been prosecuted?

It is being enforced by stopping the sales, like I just said.

Prior restraint is a state restriction on the exercise of a right based on the possibility that you might be doing something illegal.

Background checks are a state restriction on the exercise of the right to arms based on the possibility that you might be doing something illegal.

Thus, prior restraint.

Interesting. Thanks. You might have a point.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Careful Goobie, he thinks each right has individual sub sets of rules for some reason, you might confuse him with the simplicity that is rights.

Careful, LMR, your hand might get bitten when you try to put words in someone else's mouth.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

It is being enforced by stopping the sales, like I just said.
But there's more to the law than just stopping sales -- it specifies a penalty.

Interesting. Thanks. You might have a point.
Happens every now and again.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

But there's more to the law than just stopping sales -- it specifies a penalty.

Yes. And like many other laws, they aren't always prosecuted. Just like my jaywalking example. Usually the penalty is there to handle serious cases. Prosecuting every single one of them would clog up the courts. Prosecutors have discretion.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Careful, LMR, your hand might get bitten when you try to put words in someone else's mouth.
Nope, you are demonstrating throughout this thread that you think every right has subsets, part of it was your idea that prior restraint only applies to freedom of speech, this is false, but hey, don't mind my logic it's only based on what is patently obvious.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Yes. And like many other laws, they aren't always prosecuted.
If it is such a big deal for felons to not have guns, and that everyone's right to arms should be infringed just to stop them from doing so, why should felons that try to buy guns NOT be prosecuted?

Either its important or its not; can't have it both ways.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Maybe because convicted cons have either killed people or used guns to comit crimes, meaning they have proven imature to own a gun. Of course they could always buy a illegal gun, but that would send them back to prison anyhow.
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Maybe because convicted cons have either killed people or used guns to comit crimes, meaning they have proven imature to own a gun.
Ok.... and if keeping them from buying a gun is SO important that the right to arms -needs- to be infringed, why should felons that try to buy guns - committing a felony -- not be prosecuted for same?
 
Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

If it is such a big deal for felons to not have guns, and that everyone's right to arms should be infringed just to stop them from doing so, why should felons that try to buy guns NOT be prosecuted?

Either its important or its not; can't have it both ways.

Nope. I can have one but not the other if I want to. Nothing inconsistent. Prosecutors use discretion all the time. You don't seem to mind when it comes to other laws.
 
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