View Poll Results: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?

Voters
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  • A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 1st amendment rights

    6 15.79%
  • A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 2nd amendment rights

    22 57.89%
  • Registration requirement of some or all of your books and other 1st amendment related things

    2 5.26%
  • Registration requirement of some or all of your firearms and other weapons.

    30 78.95%
  • A ban on certain books,religions, what the press can report and etc.

    3 7.89%
  • A ban on certain weapons.

    24 63.16%
  • A ban on certain individuals from exercising 1st amendment rights

    3 7.89%
  • A ban on certain individuals form exercising 2nd amendment rights

    17 44.74%
  • A total ban on 1st amendment rights

    2 5.26%
  • A total ban on 2nd amendment rights

    3 7.89%
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Thread: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?

  1. #101
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Pal View Post
    I believe gun ownership should be a privelege granted by the government. Driving is a privelege granted by the government because of the damage a person can do with a car if they don't know how to operate it. Guns can do just as much damage but actually have the intended purpose of killing or wounding people, while that's just a regrettable side effect of cars. No one should be allowed to use something that could easily kill innocent people if used incorrectly without the proper training. Considering the amount of training Police Officers must go through before they're entrusted with guns it just seems like a given to me that ordinary people who want to use guns should have to have some sort of training.

    Of course, I understand that the Constitution disagrees with me. I don't need reminding.
    Let me let you in on a big secret that those of us who are familiar with this issue all know

    1) if you go to a p ublic target range or a gun club on a saturday afternoon and randomly select 10 people there and then go to say the Cincinnati or Columbus police department and randomly select 10 officers and then have both groups

    a) shoot the police qualification course with say a standard handgun like a glock 17 or a beretta 92


    b) give t hem a test on gun laws, gun types etc

    you will almost always find that the non cop civilians are far better shots than the cops and know far more about guns

    Justice department studies consistently demonstrate that when non cop civilians get into gun fights they are

    a) far more likely to hit the bad guy

    b) far less likely to hit an innocent by-stander than a cop

    my 12 year old son can outshoot 90% of the cops in Ohio. I know-=he went to the top firearms/lethal force training facility in the state and proved that to instructors with years of experience including county swat captains, military police officers etc

    of course he shoots about 4000 rounds a year out of his 22 pistol and another 1000 out of a smith and wesson 38

    that is more than most cops will shoot in their lifetime

    by the time he is 15 he should be a USPSA GM in limited division



  2. #102
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Let me let you in on a big secret that those of us who are familiar with this issue all know

    1) if you go to a p ublic target range or a gun club on a saturday afternoon and randomly select 10 people there and then go to say the Cincinnati or Columbus police department and randomly select 10 officers and then have both groups

    a) shoot the police qualification course with say a standard handgun like a glock 17 or a beretta 92


    b) give t hem a test on gun laws, gun types etc

    you will almost always find that the non cop civilians are far better shots than the cops and know far more about guns

    Justice department studies consistently demonstrate that when non cop civilians get into gun fights they are

    a) far more likely to hit the bad guy

    b) far less likely to hit an innocent by-stander than a cop

    my 12 year old son can outshoot 90% of the cops in Ohio. I know-=he went to the top firearms/lethal force training facility in the state and proved that to instructors with years of experience including county swat captains, military police officers etc

    of course he shoots about 4000 rounds a year out of his 22 pistol and another 1000 out of a smith and wesson 38

    that is more than most cops will shoot in their lifetime

    by the time he is 15 he should be a USPSA GM in limited division
    If that's true, that is a sad, sad fact. But why is that the case then? Shouldn't our law enforcement personnel be trained in self-defense with a weapon?
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  3. #103
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Justice department studies consistently demonstrate...
    Can you show us some of these studies?

  4. #104
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Use a gun? I hope you're talking about hunting?
    Because if you bring a gun to a rally with the specific intent to use it...
    There are any number of legitimate uses for a gun. None of this changes anything I said - licensing, as you have cited it is based on the idea of the regulation of use of public property, and as such, must be similarly applied, should you want your argument to have any relevance.

    In the rest of your response you're reading the second amendment through a keyhole...
    Way to sidestep any attempt at a substantive debate. I'm not surprised.
    How about you respond to the points I made, directly.

  5. #105
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    The selections are far too restrictive, so- no vote, as usual.
    There must be regulations and limits on rights, and we do need many more, as man misbehaves so much.
    Specifically the extremest church against the father of the US Marine ...This gentleman's rights were violated by this "church", criminal charges should be filed.

  6. #106
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Specifically the extremest church against the father of the US Marine ...This gentleman's rights were violated by this "church", criminal charges should be filed.
    What rights were violated?

    I despise that church and what they did, and I would probably have committed a criminal offense against them myself if I had been there, but I'm not sure anyone's rights were violated.

  7. #107
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    My thoughts on each of the options:

    A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 1st amendment rights.
    That's okay, such as holding a public gathering or assembly so as not to disrupt traffic etc.

    A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 2nd amendment rights.
    Yes, you should have to get a license to purchase a firearm.

    Registration requirement of some or all of your books and other 1st amendment related things
    No, this one's ridiculous.

    Registration requirement of some or all of your firearms and other weapons.
    Yes, you should have to register any firearms you own.

    A ban on certain books,religions, what the press can report and etc.
    Yes, banning certain uses of the first amendment (shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater and the like) are acceptable.

    A ban on certain weapons.
    Yes. Many weapons should remain in the hands of the military/police only.

    A ban on certain individuals from exercising 1st amendment rights
    Yes, this is acceptable under certain circumstances. I don't really know how you would enforce it though.

    A ban on certain individuals form exercising 2nd amendment rights
    Also acceptable. Convicted felons and people who can't pass a basic gun safety course are the first to come to mind.

    A total ban on 1st amendment rights
    Unacceptable.

    A total ban on 2nd amendment rights
    Also Unacceptable.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  8. #108
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Pal View Post
    Can you show us some of these studies?
    I'm an ex-cop, and I also teach defensive handgunning to non-LE citizens, and I back up what Turtledude said.

    As for why? Most cops are working their butts off and making lousy pay. Most of their departments have limited training budgets, and lavish most of it on their special teams like SWAT.

    By the time they get off-shift, the average LE just *might* have enough time and energy left to hit the weightroom for 30 minutes. If he wants extra practice (other than annual quals) with his firearm he will shell for the ammo out of his own pocket... try explaining to the missus that you're not taking her out to dinner this week because you spent the money on ammo.

    Contrariwise a lot of armed citizens, particularly of the CCW variety, are very dedicated shooters as a hobby and pastime, and many of them can afford to shell out the big bucks to get training time with the likes of Ken Hackathorne.

    Having been in Law Enforcement, I am here to tell you that having a badge does not magically make you more competent with a gun than Joe Citizen, nor endow you with magically superior judgment or other superpowers.

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  9. #109
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    If that's true, that is a sad, sad fact. But why is that the case then? Shouldn't our law enforcement personnel be trained in self-defense with a weapon?
    sure but most cops do the bare minimum to qualify

    me, I am a former tour shooter and still shoot alot. When I was on the IPSC tour I was shooting 50 K of 9x21 or 45 a year. When I was a WC skeet shooter-at least 2000 registered targets a year and 8 x that in practice

    I was a professional shooter so I shot alot. Cops are professional cops-shooting is just one of the many things they have to do and many don't particularly care for it



  10. #110
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Pal View Post
    Can you show us some of these studies?
    I had a copy at work for years

    do you know how to use google?



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