• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

  • Yes, this particular young man is a perfect example

    Votes: 12 20.3%

  • No, never.

    Votes: 31 52.5%

  • The justice system needs another alternative for extremely young, potentially dangerous offenders

    Votes: 11 18.6%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 5 8.5%
  • Total voters
    59
For the last time...

Being tried as an adult does not mean the child will be put immediately into an adult facility. This is just silliness.

It means if convicted and sentenced to life, he will be detained until the age of 18 or 21 in a maximum security juvenile facility. At which time he will be moved to an adult facility.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
No, we throw them into state prisons. DAILY. Thousands of them. I worked with several dozen juvenile gang members who were tried as adults and sent to state prison.
Click to expand...

17 to 18 year olds? How many 11 years olds did they send?
 
As if all juvenile facilities are nice homey places with pink wallpaper and cookies anyway. :rolleyes:
 
VanceMack said:
OK...but if the laws were applied 'consistently' then there would be little room for leniency or variance for people OVER the age of 18...right?

Again...we'll agree to disagree.
Click to expand...

There isn't much room for variance as it is. If certain criteria are met, the charge is either aggravated or mitigated as well as there being min and max sentencing requirements.

All I am saying is that the very first objective litmus test is whether the person is or is not of the age of majority. If set out blurring that simple line with subjectivity, then how in the world can we have faith in the blind equality of our justice system from that point forward?
 
Blackdog said:
17 to 18 year olds? How many 11 years olds did they send?
Click to expand...

What's the cutoff? 17? 15? 12? How do you know?

How about just treating children like children and adults like adults instead of creating laws that make no sense and have no flexibility - and then circumventing them whenever they are convenient to us?
 
misterman said:
What's the cutoff? 17? 15? 12? How do you know?

How about just treating children like children and adults like adults instead of creating laws that make no sense and have no flexibility - and then circumventing them whenever they are convenient to us?
Click to expand...

Because emotions are so easy to capitulate to because there is an instant satisfaction in doing so. :shrug:
 
Blackdog said:
For the last time...

Being tried as an adult does not mean the child will be put immediately into an adult facility. This is just silliness.

It means if convicted and sentenced to life, he will be detained until the age of 18 or 21 in a maximum security juvenile facility. At which time he will be moved to an adult facility.
Click to expand...

You're mistaken, blackdog. In most states, being tried as an adult removes the juvenile from the juvenile system, and puts him/her into the adult court system, and then into the adult correctional system. You're speaking from ignorance here. I've even provided you with sources for this. There are around 10,000 juveniles (under age 18) currently incarcerated in adult prisons in the U.S.

They aren't put into federal prisons, but they are definitely put into state prisons. In most states, the juvenile justice system and the adult justice system are two separate animals. Being placed into the adult system means just that. You do adult time. That's the whole point.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
We will probably have to agree to disagree on this one. I saw juvenile crime rise after we began trying 16-17 year olds as adults, because the gangs started to recruit 14 & 15 year olds to commit homicides so that the older members wouldn't receive life sentences. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, and it may be something we never intended.

Trying juveniles as adults is NOT an effective solution to violent juvenile crime.



16 and 17 year old offenders are routinely send to state prisons after being tried as adults. There are very few states with separate facilities to house juvenile offenders tried as adults. They are two totally separate systems.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bja/182503.pdf

There are a number of studies that have shown that recidivism is significantly higher for juveniles incarcerated with adults than for similar juveniles who are placed in juvenile facilities. (one example: The Recidivism of Violent Youths in Juvenile and Adult Court: A Consideration of Selection Bias -- Myers 1 (1): 79 -- Youth Violence and Juvenile Justice) That's why many professionals in the fields of criminal justice, law enforcement, and juvenile justice do not support trying juveniles under the age of 18 as adults.
Click to expand...

16 or 17 year olds are fine. They are adults for most purposes. Hell they used to be able to get married at that age. In some states they still can.
 
Blackdog said:
17 to 18 year olds? How many 11 years olds did they send?
Click to expand...

No, not 17 and 18 year olds. 14 - 17 year olds. An 18-year-old is a legal adult and would automatically be tried as an adult. I've provided you with data on this, which you apparently have not looked at. I'd encourage you to scroll up and read it.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
You're mistaken, blackdog. In most states, being tried as an adult removes the juvenile from the juvenile system, and puts him/her into the adult court system, and then into the adult correctional system. You're speaking from ignorance here. I've even provided you with sources for this. There are around 10,000 juveniles (under age 18) currently incarcerated in adult prisons in the U.S.

They aren't put into federal prisons, but they are definitely put into state prisons. In most states, the juvenile justice system and the adult justice system are two separate animals. Being placed into the adult system means just that. You do adult time. That's the whole point.
Click to expand...

You are talking 16 to 18 year olds convicted of aggravated forcible felony's.

That is OK.

Heck I arrested a 16 year old for stabbing his mother. He got tried as an adult. For all practical purposes he was.

No case I know of of a 15 year old or younger getting sent to a state penn etc.

Cat, it is a 135 page book. Do you really think I am going to read it???
 
Last edited:
All in all I still have no problem with it. At 14 years of age you know right from wrong, period.

I think my problem is total emotional detachment. I really don't care. I say let them do the time if they do the crime, period.
 
jallman said:
For most purposes doesn't cut it. Either they are or they are not adults.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I still think they should be tried as such for forcible felonies etc as they are.
 
Blackdog said:
I agree, but I still think they should be tried as such for forcible felonies etc as they are.
Click to expand...

I don't know, maybe my problem is expecting black and white standards of application like forming a logical proof.

I have such a hard time accepting anything less than total objectivity and consistent application of the law in any degree.
 
Blackdog said:
I agree, but I still think they should be tried as such for forcible felonies etc as they are.
Click to expand...

I don't see any benefit to trying 16-17 year olds as adults. They recidivate at higher rates when incarcerated with adults, and are more likely to receive rehabilitative services in a juvenile facility. From a cost-benefit approach, it's a bad strategy. As a fiscal conservative, I give it a thumbs-down.
 
Blackdog said:
Not what?

I understand that. That is why it is done case by case. Not every juvenile in every circumstance is tried as an adult. They should not be, but in some cases they should.
Click to expand...

JUVENILES TRIED AS ADULTS ARE PLACED INTO ADULT FACILITIES, almost without exception.

Cheese & rice.
 
Blackdog said:
Not what?

I understand that. That is why it is done case by case. Not every juvenile in every circumstance is tried as an adult. They should not be, but in some cases they should.
Click to expand...

Here we go again. ;)

What objective measure can be used to determine the sudden and dramatic shift in how the system treats them?
 
jallman said:
Here we go again. ;)

What objective measure can be used to determine the sudden and dramatic shift in how the system treats them?
Click to expand...

It's a freaking knee-jerk political overreaction that almost always starts in the prosecutor's office. It isn't objective at all.
 
jallman said:
I don't know, maybe my problem is expecting black and white standards of application like forming a logical proof.
Click to expand...

It is expecting a bit much from an imperfect system. No reason not to fight for it though.

jallman said:
I have such a hard time accepting anything less than total objectivity and consistent application of the law in any degree.
Click to expand...

I can see that. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing either.

when it comes to crime and punishment maybe I am to disconnected. I have no sympathy for anyone anymore, even youthful offenders. I just feel nothing but tired.

I don't know man, we have what we have and I am just not at odds with youngsters getting full treatment as adults in the case of certain crimes.
 
jallman said:
Here we go again. ;)

What objective measure can be used to determine the sudden and dramatic shift in how the system treats them?
Click to expand...

That is up to each state. If you want a standard don't look to me.
 
Blackdog said:
It is expecting a bit much from an imperfect system. No reason not to fight for it though.



I can see that. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing either.

when it comes to crime and punishment maybe I am to disconnected. I have no sympathy for anyone anymore, even youthful offenders. I just feel nothing but tired.

I don't know man, we have what we have and I am just not at odds with youngsters getting full treatment as adults in the case of certain crimes.
Click to expand...

And I am totally against it, 100%...even in the cases where I feel like the little bastard should fry. But I think that cut and dry about every criminal issue. There is a standard of measurement of culpability and it is the standard applied to everyone regardless of social status, economic standing, color, race, creed or religion. That black and white measure is what leads me to detest hate crime legislation and trying juveniles as adults: the law should be dispassionate, totally objective, and blind to petty human emotion.
 
jallman said:
And I am totally against it, 100%...even in the cases where I feel like the little bastard should fry. But I think that cut and dry about every criminal issue. There is a standard of measurement of culpability and it is the standard applied to everyone regardless of social status, economic standing, color, race, creed or religion. That black and white measure is what leads me to detest hate crime legislation and trying juveniles as adults: the law should be dispassionate, totally objective, and blind to petty human emotion.
Click to expand...

I have to agree. The juvenile system should handle juveniles, regardless of offense, who are under age 18. The adult system should handle adults. The end.

If the juvenile system lacks the resources or jurisdiction to hold juveniles who commit serious crimes, we should address that deficit, rather than this hodgepodge mishmash of insanity that we currently have.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom