Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

jujuman13 said:

In prison he very like will.

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That's just sick.:naughty

Jerry said:

While I'm glad to see everyone accepting the premise that the death of a fetus is a crime, I'm left wondering why the father hasn't been charged for leaving his shot gun accessible to a minor.

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Excellent point, Jerry! I very much agree.

MyOwnDrum said:

Excellent point, Jerry! I very much agree.

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Well, you know, even if they think out a crime, children aren't developed enough to have a cold criminal mind. They're to emotionally and physiologically immature...which is exactly why we have laws against minors owning firearms...they tend to do stupid **** like kill their pregnant step-mothers to-be. I would bet that in his mind he was just trying to stop the further destruction of his family, the woman steeling the only parent we know is in his life, and from being replaced altogether by a new sibling. It's a child's rationality which inspired him to act, not an adult's.

IMO the kid should be tried as a minor, and the father should be charged with homicide.

We haven't talked much about the parents of the boy, or his situation. From the looks of him in the photo he does appear to be a thuggish, disturbed troublemaker. I imagine that this was not his first act of violence. He obviously came from a disrupted family situation and was disturbed by his stepmother and her unborn child.

His father was extremely negligient and totally irresponsible leaving a shotgun within this disturbed boy's reach.

Jerry said:

Well, you know, even if they think out a crime, children aren't developed enough to have a cold criminal mind. They're to emotionally and physiologically immature...which is exactly why we have laws against minors owning firearms...they tend to do stupid **** like kill their pregnant step-mothers to-be. I would bet that in his mind he was just trying to stop the further destruction of his family, the woman steeling the only parent we know is in his life, and from being replaced altogether by a new sibling. It's a child's rationality which inspired him to act, not an adult's.

IMO the kid should be tried as a minor, and the father should be charged with homicide.

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Once again, kudos. You are entirely correct. If he hadn't had access to a loaded weapon, he wouldn't have been able to act on his impulse to kill his stepmother to be.

I know I had some murderous thoughts towards my stepfather when I was young. He was a real asshole. Now he's 84 and we get along just fine...

One of the news sites, I think the one I linked but I'm not sure, explained that it was the 11 year old's own gun, a smaller shotgun made for kids, that he would often shoot with his dad on their land.

emdash said:

One of the news sites, I think the one I linked but I'm not sure, explained that it was the 11 year old's own gun, a smaller shotgun made for kids, that he would often shoot with his dad on their land.

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Oh, so the Dad bought his unstable kid his own gun, and gave him unlimited access to it, that makes it all okay...

samsmart said:

No it wouldn't. All it would tell him is that if he shoots someone again then he'll just get imprisoned again.

And this is when you tell me, "Well, that's why we put murderers to death for killing other people so they won't pursue that behavior again and kill again."

To which I will retort, "That may be the case, but 1) if we treated him properly for the first murder he likely would not have done the second and 2) your solution doesn't work for less severe crimes, such as professional burglary. If all we do is punish burglars for stealing things then all they'll do is steal things with the expectation of getting imprisoned. However, if we find the root cause of why they steal, which is likely because they are uneducated, unskilled, or feel they don't have any promising job opportunities, treat that, help them get educated, help them get job skills, and offer them fair and gainful employment then we take away their reasoning for further pursuing future criminal behavior."

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Am I the only one who has little or no interest in trying to redeem this kid? Should he be convicted, I'd be more interested in removing the threat he poses. I am not advocating the death penalty for minors or for anyone. Life imprisonment would be just fine.

As for less severe crimes, I see no reason why a man shouldn't go to jail over and over for the rest of his life if he doesn't stop stealing. He knows the consequence of the action and he continues to engage in it; that is his prerogative. It is also his prerogative to do what he can to better himself if he has any desire to break the cycle. It's probably not easy, but it's certainly not impossible.

It is not, nor should it be, in my opinion, the responsibility of the criminal justice system to rehabilitate, or the responsibility of society (read: the government) to prevent people from committing crimes by providing them with complimentary education, skills and employment. Anyone who wants those things can go and get them on his own, and anyone who wants to be a jerk can be a jerk.

Am I over simplifying?

MyOwnDrum said:

Oh, so the Dad bought his unstable kid his own gun, and gave him unlimited access to it, that makes it all okay...

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Did I say it was okay?

emdash said:

I have no problem with a children's wing in a prison as long as it is actually like a prison.

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Me neither. They defintely need to be locked up somewhere. But once they are locked up they have to pass the time somehow. Which is why I think some kind of education system should be put in place.

repeter said:

Forget the 11 year olds. Just hold them until they are older, and retry them as adults, if you want to kill them. All I want is to remove kids who are killers from the streets.

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I'm not too keen on the idea of a retrial when they reach adulthood either. The person we are at 11 is not the person we are at 18. It's like dealing with two completely different people.

MyOwnDrum said:

Here's the case: FOXNews.com - Adult Trial for Boy in Death of Pa. Woman, Fetus

They are trying this boy as an adult. If you go to the article, you'll see a photo of the boy.

An 11 year old is very young. At 11 most kids haven't even started puberty. How can a child that young be considered an adult? Is this kid any more unreformable than many young thugs? What he allegedly did was horrible, but he is not anywhere near adulthood.

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as liberal as i am, i believe yes, some children should be tried as adults. sociopathy is not curable.

i don't know about the circumstances with this particular boy.

liblady said:

as liberal as i am, i believe yes, some children should be tried as adults. sociopathy is not curable.

i don't know about the circumstances with this particular boy.

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I think it's a little difficult to pin "sociopathy" on this particular kid though. Definitely disturbed and definitely didn't have any concept of how his action could be permanent. But I think those might be some anger management and latent rage type things stemming from his home life, if anything.

jallman said:

I think it's a little difficult to pin "sociopathy" on this particular kid though. Definitely disturbed and definitely didn't have any concept of how his action could be permanent. But I think those might be some anger management and latent rage type things stemming from his home life, if anything.

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I agree with you except, yes, an 11 year old knows death is permanent. I knew that at 5 as I recall.

But this boy was deeply disturbed and had inner rage that he was unable to control. Add to that access to a loaded weapon and, there you have it.

jallman said:

I think it's a little difficult to pin "sociopathy" on this particular kid though. Definitely disturbed and definitely didn't have any concept of how his action could be permanent. But I think those might be some anger management and latent rage type things stemming from his home life, if anything.

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agreed, as i said, i don't know about this particular boy. was there another link with more details?

i like to think prosecutors don't make these decisions lightly.

MyOwnDrum said:

I agree with you except, yes, an 11 year old knows death is permanent. I knew that at 5 as I recall.

But this boy was deeply disturbed and had inner rage that he was unable to control. Add to that access to a loaded weapon and, there you have it.

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I don't think kids really have that concept so early, especially in our society. They're immersed in violent television, violent video games, violent comic books and, with this kid, you kinda are left with the intimation that there was some violence at home though that last part can be set aside because I haven't seen solid evidence.

The point is, there's all this violence and death around them that isn't permanent and it has to have an effect on their concept of the far reaching consequences of real life violence.

My best friend was killed by a buckshot to the chest when I was 13. I was there and saw it happen, gun went off while it was being unloaded and then there was just blood everywhere. His chest looked like shredded tissue paper and bits of bone and viscera showing through. One minute we were all laughing and unloading our guns after having been shooting mistletoe out of oak trees and the next, our lives were changed forever. The boy who's gun went off never was the same again and, of course, Chris was gone.

Now I know this was an accident and nothing like a murder performed in a fit of rage but...it took me over a long time to realize that Chris was never coming back. I mean I knew on a purely intellectual level, but emotionally, I don't think I came to that realization till well into the following year. The permanence of it just wasn't something I could grasp.

I just don't think kids have the emotional capacity to understand, especially in a fit of rage, what the real consequences of their actions are. My question, and I think the poignant question at that, is why wasn't his rage issue being addressed? Why were his disturbances allowed to go unchecked AND why was loaded gun put in his hands? When do the adults in his life have to start claiming responsibility for how they cheated this kid out of his childhood with their apathy toward his problems?

I just don't think our society should treat him as an adult just because no one else bothered to treat him as a child before now.

Until the drinking age, smoking age, right to vote, gambling age, legal sexual consent age, and certain other age-dependent restrictive laws become applied based on the individual situation, I will never support the application of punitive laws based upon the situation.

Tucker Case said:

Until the drinking age, smoking age, right to vote, gambling age, legal sexual consent age, and certain other age-dependent restrictive laws become applied based on the individual situation, I will never support the application of punitive laws based upon the situation.

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but limits are put on those activities to safeguard children. sometimes society needs to be protected from kids who kill.

liblady said:

but limits are put on those activities to safeguard children. sometimes society needs to be protected from kids who kill.

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At this point, it is irrelavent how here got there....
What is relavent is where he's going.....

liblady said:

but limits are put on those activities to safeguard children.

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I disagree with it being "society's" job to enforce those rules. But even still, the point remains that not ALL children need to be safeguarded form certain behaviors. A responsible 16 year-old living on her own with a steady job shouldn't be prevented from having a drink if she so chooses.

Hence my inclusion of "situation-dependent" application in my statement.

As it stands, such a 16 year old isn't granted equal rights based on her maturity and responsibility. Hell, an actual 18-year old who lives on their own and has a steady job isn't granted that equal right.

I think that's asinine personally, but if that's how our law works, it should be evenly applied for things we agree with as well as things we disagree with.

sometimes society needs to be protected from kids who kill.

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And sometimes kids who kill need to be protected from society.

liblady said:

but limits are put on those activities to safeguard children. sometimes society needs to be protected from kids who kill.

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That's why I voted that the justice system needs another alternative for these types of disturbing cases. Trying them as adults doesn't seem like a fair or rational approach, nor does trying them in the juvenile system, only to release them at age 21 as hardened criminals at the age when criminal capabilities and tendencies are at their peak.

It's well known that aging does a lot to quell violent tendencies in men. It just doesn't make practical sense to send an already violent prone boy into the juvenile detention system, where he will most certainly be exposed to young, violent criminals as his main role models.

MyOwnDrum said:

That's why I voted that the justice system needs another alternative for these types of disturbing cases. Trying them as adults doesn't seem like a fair or rational approach, nor does trying them in the juvenile system, only to release them at age 21 as hardened criminals at the age when criminal capabilities and tendencies are at their peak.

It's well known that aging does a lot to quell violent tendencies in men. It just doesn't make practical sense to send an already violent prone boy into the juvenile detention system, where he will most certainly be exposed to young, violent criminals as his main role models.

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Maybe the consequences should be taught at an early age in school....
If you kill on purpose, you will be killed.....
I think mot children can grasp that concept....
There seems to be no problem with teaching sex education in school, why not this?....

MyOwnDrum said:

That's why I voted that the justice system needs another alternative for these types of disturbing cases. Trying them as adults doesn't seem like a fair or rational approach, nor does trying them in the juvenile system, only to release them at age 21 as hardened criminals at the age when criminal capabilities and tendencies are at their peak.

It's well known that aging does a lot to quell violent tendencies in men. It just doesn't make practical sense to send an already violent prone boy into the juvenile detention system, where he will most certainly be exposed to young, violent criminals as his main role models.

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That definitely has some merit. I, personally, think the boy needs to be placed in a mental health facility.

MyOwnDrum said:

That's why I voted that the justice system needs another alternative for these types of disturbing cases. Trying them as adults doesn't seem like a fair or rational approach, nor does trying them in the juvenile system, only to release them at age 21 as hardened criminals at the age when criminal capabilities and tendencies are at their peak.

It's well known that aging does a lot to quell violent tendencies in men. It just doesn't make practical sense to send an already violent prone boy into the juvenile detention system, where he will most certainly be exposed to young, violent criminals as his main role models.

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but he is a young, violent criminal. should we segregate them all? there's no good answer here.