View Poll Results: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

Voters
75. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, this particular young man is a perfect example

    13 17.33%
  • No, never.

    39 52.00%
  • The justice system needs another alternative for extremely young, potentially dangerous offenders

    18 24.00%
  • Other, please explain

    5 6.67%
Page 43 of 52 FirstFirst ... 334142434445 ... LastLast
Results 421 to 430 of 519

Thread: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

  1. #421
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    02-16-11 @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    36,915
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    I've already provided one. I'm waiting for the other side to come up with one as well.
    May I suggest you scroll back and read the thread then?

  2. #422
    The Almighty
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Last Seen
    10-21-17 @ 11:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    13,534

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No, that is a subjective evaluation and not a baseline. Unless you think we can perform a standardized test, on the spot, unbiased by the psychiatrist's views, differences in theory, etc.

    I don't see that happening as there are so many different schools of thought within the field of psychiatry alone. The justice system should seek to remove the subjective taint of its officers' world views as much as possible.
    I addressed this in my last post. Applying the same standards to multiple subjects is not subjective. Applying different standards to different subjects (for example, treating an 11 year-old differently than an 18 year-old who commits the same crime) is. A teacher grading a math quiz is not subjective.

    We use psychiatric reviews to decide if an adult is competent to stand trial. I see no problem with expanding it to under-age offenders.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

    Serbian proverb

  3. #423
    The Almighty
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Last Seen
    10-21-17 @ 11:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    13,534

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    May I suggest you scroll back and read the thread then?
    I have. I have seen no standards that you or the others have provided that will work for both child and adult defenders to decide what court to try them under other than "if they're under the age of 15...or 18....or 21."
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

    Serbian proverb

  4. #424
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    02-16-11 @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    36,915
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    I addressed this in my last post. Applying the same standards to multiple subjects is not subjective. Applying different standards to different subjects (for example, treating an 11 year-old differently than an 18 year-old who commits the same crime) is. A teacher grading a math quiz is not subjective.
    It becomes subjective when the math teacher decides that Little Kung Pao is smarter at the maths than Little Suzy Q and applies a curve based on that subjective decision. It is only objective when the answer is either right or wrong, or in the case of this discussion when the mean age is established by a baseline and never deviated from based on the feelings of an evaluator.

    We use psychiatric reviews to decide if an adult is competent to stand trial. I see no problem with expanding it to under-age offenders.
    That is a completely different issue and only performed in preparation for a plea of "not guilty by reason of mental defect" or in the case of obvious psychological distress that mitigates culpability even further. It is not a baseline evaluation for whether the subject is an adult or a child and whether the law should be applied differently to that subject.

  5. #425
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    02-16-11 @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    36,915
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    I have. I have seen no standards that you or the others have provided that will work for both child and adult defenders to decide what court to try them under other than "if they're under the age of 15...or 18....or 21."
    Then I don't know what to tell you because I have read exactly what you keep denying a total of 3 times in the last 12 pages.

  6. #426
    The Almighty
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Last Seen
    10-21-17 @ 11:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    13,534

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    It becomes subjective when the math teacher decides that Little Kung Pao is smarter at the maths than Little Suzy Q and applies a curve based on that subjective decision. It is only objective when the answer is either right or wrong, or in the case of this discussion when the mean age is established by a baseline and never deviated from based on the feelings of an evaluator.
    Unfortunately social sciences can never be completely objective. However, we can make objective standards and hope that all evaluators make an honest effort to examine the offender based off of those standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    That is a completely different issue and only performed in preparation for a plea of "not guilty by reason of mental defect" or in the case of obvious psychological distress that mitigates culpability even further. It is not a baseline evaluation for whether the subject is an adult or a child and whether the law should be applied differently to that subject.
    Except we're essentially declaring them not guilty by reason of age. If a court trusts a psychiatrist to decide when an adult is competent to be charged as an adult, why wouldn't they trust a psychiatrist to decide when a child is comptent to be tried as an adult.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

    Serbian proverb

  7. #427
    The Almighty
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Last Seen
    10-21-17 @ 11:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    13,534

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Then I don't know what to tell you because I have read exactly what you keep denying a total of 3 times in the last 12 pages.
    Can you just retype the standards? Really quick, it can be a list. Look, I'll redo mine too.

    -understand what they did was wrong
    -acted with intent
    -understand the consequences of what they did
    -capable of understanding the trial process

    I say if anyone meets all those standards, they should be tried as an adult. All I'm looking for as a point of comparison is a set of universal standards from you.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

    Serbian proverb

  8. #428
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    02-16-11 @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    36,915
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Unfortunately social sciences can never be completely objective. However, we can make objective standards and hope that all evaluators make an honest effort to examine the offender based off of those standards.
    Hope is not a reliable method of depending on objectivity. And pursuit of justice needs to have as much exact precision as possible, which means removing human judgment where able. That is the only way to apply equal and consistent culpability to the defendant.

    Except we're essentially declaring them not guilty by reason of age.
    Hold up...we are not declaring anyone "not guilty" yet. That's getting way ahead of the argument concerning which justice system in which to place them. No one here is arguing that this kid is "not guilty" as it appears he clearly is. We are only arguing what mitigations in culpability and what considerations for legal consequence he, or any defendant, should receive at the onset of their trial. I think it's reasonable for an 11 year old to receive certain considerations based on the fact that it appears he was never properly socialized or morally instructed. You don't think something went wrong somewhere that put a loaded gun in the hands of a disturbed 11 year old that might limit his culpability here and indicate that an adult who was responsible for his well being (emotionally and mentally) failed him somewhere?

    If a court trusts a psychiatrist to decide when an adult is competent to be charged as an adult, why wouldn't they trust a psychiatrist to decide when a child is comptent to be tried as an adult.
    I would trust a panel to do a study and create a baseline from which to determine a standard age based on a statistical mean and go from there. Take, for instance, your example of the math teacher grading the test: the answer is right or wrong with no consideration for the gifted's ability to perform with 100% accuracy or the slow to perform with 20% accuracy. But they are all in the same class together and so they all perform together.

  9. #429
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    02-16-11 @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    36,915
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Can you just retype the standards? Really quick, it can be a list. Look, I'll redo mine too.

    -understand what they did was wrong
    -acted with intent
    -understand the consequences of what they did
    -capable of understanding the trial process

    I say if anyone meets all those standards, they should be tried as an adult. All I'm looking for as a point of comparison is a set of universal standards from you.
    I would say that we establish a statistically consistent age at which the child:

    - Has a reasonable expectation of impulse control
    - Has a reasonable expectation to know right from wrong
    - Has developed a sense of individuality that allows for personal judgment to override the influence of parental figures
    - Has developed emotional stability that allows for the child to be outside the supervision of adults for extended periods without any fear of emotion overriding moral instruction
    - Is expected to behave without persistent supervision of adults
    - Emotional or mental disturbance would be evident in the child's behavior and not written off as immaturity
    - Is capable of understanding the far reaching consequences of his actions, including the permanence of them and a holistic view of how his actions affect others

    Let me repeat...these points don't indicate guilt or innocence. They only indicate whether culpability should be mitigated or aggravated.
    Last edited by jallman; 04-11-10 at 04:38 PM.

  10. #430
    The Almighty
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Last Seen
    10-21-17 @ 11:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    13,534

    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I would say that we establish a statistically consistent age at which the child:

    - Has a reasonable expectation of impulse control
    - Has a reasonable expectation to know right from wrong
    - Has developed a sense of individuality that allows for personal judgment to override the influence of parental figures
    - Has developed emotional stability that allows for the child to be outside the supervision of adults for extended periods without any fear of emotion overriding moral instruction
    - Is expected to behave without persistent supervision of adults
    - Emotional or mental disturbance would be evident in the child's behavior and not written off as immaturity
    - Is capable of understanding the far reaching consequences of his actions, including the permanence of them and a holistic view of how his actions affect others

    Let me repeat...these points don't indicate guilt or innocence. They only indicate whether culpability should be mitigated or aggravated.
    I'm down with those. So just so I'm not putting words into your mouth, if a child meets those standards, they should be tried as an adult?
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

    Serbian proverb

Page 43 of 52 FirstFirst ... 334142434445 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •