View Poll Results: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

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  • Yes, this particular young man is a perfect example

    13 17.33%
  • No, never.

    39 52.00%
  • The justice system needs another alternative for extremely young, potentially dangerous offenders

    18 24.00%
  • Other, please explain

    5 6.67%
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Thread: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

  1. #281
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Not true, anything we touch is affected.

    Go sit in a courtroom for any length of time and watch what happens. It is nothing but emotion from the States Attorney who was divorced and now has a vendetta, to the police officer who was picked on in high school and lashes out at society as a whole right up to the judge who has political ambition.

    No, everything about our system runs around and is filed by human emotion.

    It will always be a part of everything we touch.
    Law is reason unaffected by desire. Or should be, according to Aristotle.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Not true, anything we touch is affected.

    Go sit in a courtroom for any length of time and watch what happens. It is nothing but emotion from the States Attorney who was divorced and now has a vendetta, to the police officer who was picked on in high school and lashes out at society as a whole right up to the judge who has political ambition.

    No, everything about our system runs around and is fueled by human emotion.

    It will always be a part of everything we touch.
    If we can create a dispassionate scientific method and dispassionate programming languages then I think we can codefy petty emotion out of the legal system. Not completely, mind you, but wherever humanly possible. Adherence to strict standards is the only way to do that. A series of if/then scenarios that lead to a tightly tailored answer to the question of justice in every case.

  3. #283
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Law is reason unaffected by desire. Or should be, according to Aristotle.
    What it should be and what it is are 2 different things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    What it should be and what it is are 2 different things.
    True dat. /thread

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    If we can create a dispassionate scientific method and dispassionate programming languages then I think we can codefy petty emotion out of the legal system. Not completely, mind you, but wherever humanly possible. Adherence to strict standards is the only way to do that. A series of if/then scenarios that lead to a tightly tailored answer to the question of justice in every case.
    That is not the nature of crime. Crime is chaos, and chaos flies in the face of most logic. So many factors in each crime make each one different. And so many people involved.

    What you suggest would take a super computer the size of the moon.

    PS even the scientific method has been affected. Lies, covered up tests etc. After humans get involved, it can never be more than what we are.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-06-10 at 05:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That is not the nature of crime. Crime is chaos, and chaos flies in the face of most logic. So many factors in each crime make each one different. And so many people involved.

    What you suggest would take a super computer the size of the moon.
    I don't think it's really all that complicated, actually. We already have the method, we just need a commitment to adherence to it.

    For instance, the process is something like this:

    1. Was a crime committed? If yes, move to step two.

    2. Was the suspect above or below the age of 18? If above, see rule set 1. If below, see rule set 2.

    (let's assume above and we go to rule set 1)

    3. Were there aggravating factors? Define the aggravating factors. Then proceed to prosecution of the preset charge.

    4. Did a jury find the defendant guilty or not guilty? Not guilty, proceed to acquittal. Guilty, proceed to sentencing.

    5. Sentencing: preset sentencing for the crime is announced, proceed to punishment.


    Follow this procedure with zero deviation and there is a huge step taken toward making the justice system equitable. Of course, this is all just untested opinion on my part.
    Last edited by jallman; 04-06-10 at 06:08 PM.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I don't think it's really all that complicated, actually. We already have the method, we just need a commitment to adherence to it.

    For instance, the process is something like this:

    1. Was a crime committed? If yes, move to step two.

    2. Was the suspect above or below the age of 18? If above, see rule set 1. If below, see rule set 2.

    (let's assume above and we go to rule set 1)

    3. Were there aggravating factors? Define the aggravating factors. Then proceed to prosecution of the preset charge.

    4. Did a jury find the defendant guilty or not guilty? Not guilty, proceed to acquittal. Guilty, proceed to sentencing.

    5. Sentencing: preset sentencing for the crime is announced, proceed to punishment.


    Follow this procedure with zero deviation and there is a huge step taken toward making the justice system equitable. Of course, this is all must untested opinion on my part.
    Hehehehe if the nature of crime were that simple.

    Who knows, you may be on to something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I don't think it's really all that complicated, actually. We already have the method, we just need a commitment to adherence to it.

    For instance, the process is something like this:

    1. Was a crime committed? If yes, move to step two.

    2. Was the suspect above or below the age of 18? If above, see rule set 1. If below, see rule set 2.

    (let's assume above and we go to rule set 1)

    3. Were there aggravating factors? Define the aggravating factors. Then proceed to prosecution of the preset charge.

    4. Did a jury find the defendant guilty or not guilty? Not guilty, proceed to acquittal. Guilty, proceed to sentencing.

    5. Sentencing: preset sentencing for the crime is announced, proceed to punishment.


    Follow this procedure with zero deviation and there is a huge step taken toward making the justice system equitable. Of course, this is all just untested opinion on my part.
    Hey, look! Objective, rational law! What a nutty idea.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Hell...Ive tried to be pretty fairly objective. I dont know the KID...and Ive suggested that if convicted he should be given the opportunity for rehab...and if he cant then he should stay where he belongs. How is that emotional?

    Ive seen juvenile offenders bite mouthfulls of meat of female guards forearms because they got careless and reached in front of them. These arent lunatic insane mental cases...they are violent children. Ive seen one kid bash in another kids head with an XBox. and on and on. Not ALL...but enough. And pardon me for not being emotional and thinking we should 'just' sentence them as juveniles because they are young.
    But this is cutting right to the heart of Jallman's position. You're interjecting your emotion into considerations of law, i.e., you've seen children do gruesome things, so that means it's okay to treat them like adults in certain cases; that's purely emotional and anecdotal.

    Trying a child as an adult would be like trying a canine as a human. Legally and objectively speaking, they are different from one another. We do not put canine's on trial for gnawing a person's face off just because the owner thought his dog was like a human at times; this should be the same thing for children and adults.

  10. #290
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    But this is cutting right to the heart of Jallman's position. You're interjecting your emotion into considerations of law, i.e., you've seen children do gruesome things, so that means it's okay to treat them like adults in certain cases; that's purely emotional and anecdotal.

    Trying a child as an adult would be like trying a canine as a human. Legally and objectively speaking, they are different from one another. We do not put canine's on trial for gnawing a person's face off just because the owner thought his dog was like a human at times; this should be the same thing for children and adults.
    Its actually NOT interjecting emotion...its interjecting REALITY. An EMOTIONAL response would be "we cant treat them like adults...they are only CHILDREN...they are only 11"...whereas I personally believe that if a 'child' has been tested and assessed by a psychologist and found to be a threat to society they should be treated as such REGARDLESS of age. I cant stress enough that i DO believe in rehab and hope for rehab...but to ignore that SOME...not all...but SOME of these guys are for whatever reasons NBKs...well...I dont want to have that conversation with their next victims parents.

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