View Poll Results: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

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  • Yes, this particular young man is a perfect example

    13 17.33%
  • No, never.

    39 52.00%
  • The justice system needs another alternative for extremely young, potentially dangerous offenders

    18 24.00%
  • Other, please explain

    5 6.67%
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Thread: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

  1. #171
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    How do you know this?
    I dont 'know' with certainty that he wont be rehabbed...I DO have a pretty good idea.

    4 years working with the juvenile justice system...300+ sex offenders and violent criminals...recidivism rate of 70%...programs designed to warehouse, not heal and rehabilitate...would you like me to continue? I COULD get very graphic about some of the things these 12, 13, and 14 year olds have done to their victims...and to fellow inmates...and to careless guards...

    The psychiatrist that interviewed him stated he felt it was highly unlikely the kid will be rehabbed.

    I have an idea...we'll slap him on the wrist (because he is only 12 after all) and then he can live with you and your family. have any small children in your home? Want to take that shot?
    Last edited by VanceMack; 04-06-10 at 01:36 PM.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Ummm, how about the fact that he's ELEVEN.
    That is nothing more than an emotional response. Based on feelings about a child, rather than the facts in the case as they have been presented.

    This is not an acceptable argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Yeah, let's just throw the entire justice system out the window and start applying our laws based on our feelings. That's certainly the smart thing to do. .
    The only one suggesting this is you.

    I asked some very basic questions...

    Does the child have presence of mind to know beyond a reasonable doubt right from wrong? According to the article he does.

    Can he be rehabilitated? According to the psychiatrist he can not. Probably a sociopath.

    Was it premeditated? All the evidence points to yes, he made a plan and had time to reconsider.

    Again my decision is based on the limited facts we have available and not emotion as you would try to project on me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #173
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That is nothing more than an emotional response. Based on feelings about a child, rather than the facts in the case as they have been presented.

    This is not an acceptable argument.
    No, it has nothing to do with feelings at all. It has to do with the FACT that the law states he is a minor and is to be tried in the juvenile system. The whole purpose of having two criminal systems to try adults and children in is because children have different capacities to appreciate the consequences of their actions. The law holds an expectation that the adults in the child's life are more responsible for him than he is.

    The only one suggesting this is you.
    No, I am suggesting a very strict adherence to the law despite the emotional response against the callousness of his crime.

    I asked some very basic questions...

    Does the child have presence of mind to know beyond a reasonable doubt right from wrong? According to the article he does.
    And according to the article, he's ELEVEN.

    Can he be rehabilitated? According to the psychiatrist he can not. Probably a sociopath.
    And according to the article, he's ELEVEN.

    Was it premeditated? All the evidence points to yes, he made a plan and had time to reconsider.
    And all evidence points to the fact that he's ELEVEN.

    Again my decision is based on the limited facts we have available and not emotion as you would try to project on me.
    Again, my decision is based on the relevant fact that he's ELEVEN, not the emotional response to his crime.

  4. #174
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I have an idea...we'll slap him on the wrist (because he is only 12 after all) and then he can live with you and your family. have any small children in your home? Want to take that shot?
    See, here's another dishonest argument born of emotional reaction rather than clear thought. No one is suggesting he just be "slapped on the wrist". However, I do think that the law is meaningless if it isn't applied objectively and consistently in all cases.

    This whole "well let him live with you" is nothing more than an appeal to emotion, an attempt to break logic and objectivity by bringing personal fear into the argument.

  5. #175
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No, it has nothing to do with feelings at all. It has to do with the FACT that the law states he is a minor and is to be tried in the juvenile system. The whole purpose of having two criminal systems to try adults and children in is because children have different capacities to appreciate the consequences of their actions. The law holds an expectation that the adults in the child's life are more responsible for him than he is.



    No, I am suggesting a very strict adherence to the law despite the emotional response against the callousness of his crime.



    And according to the article, he's ELEVEN.



    And according to the article, he's ELEVEN.



    And all evidence points to the fact that he's ELEVEN.



    Again, my decision is based on the relevant fact that he's ELEVEN, not the emotional response to his crime.
    When you come up with a better argument than "he's eleven" I will consider it. Until then your argument is lacking anything of substance and common sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Jallman, all you're doing is enforcing my belief that the whole system needs an overhaul. You're quick to pull the "he's only 11" argument out of the holster and saying that it's the way it is. It also shows that the way it is should not be the way it is. The problem with many laws such as blue laws (which were inherited from English law) and many aspects of the Constitution is that they do not reflect society in the way that it has evolved and adapted to a time of progression. I'm guessing that when these rules first came to be, a pubescent child killing a grown adult outside of the field of battle was about as non-existent as you could get.

    Such is not the case here. If we were talking about a kid whose hands slipped and the gun accidentally fired, it's a whole other case. This kid shot a pregnant woman execution style. This is full-blown premeditation, complete with culpability and understanding of motive and rationality.

    The first thing I ask myself when I consider a punishment would be "would I want them to live next door to me?". I look at this kid, his crime, his intentions, and his psychological state and I tell myself that there is absolutely no chance that I would want to be within driving distance of this kid. Parents are responsible for their children to a certain extent, but after you hit a point the fabrications of right and wrong in the human psyche determine what you do and what you don't do. This kid didn't kill his dad's girlfriend and unborn son because the dad was inept. This kid killed her because he's messed up in the head, and if you release him with essentially a slap on the wrist, his own brain tells him that killing again isn't a huge tragedy because the trade-off isn't all that bad.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    When you come up with a better argument than "he's eleven" I will consider it. Until then your argument is lacking anything of substance and common sense.
    There is no better argument than the fact that he's 11. It's the most sound argument because it follows the law objectively. You can try to insult me by insinuating that there is no common sense to my argument or whatever the **** you thought you were doing, but the fact remains, YOU'RE the one who is having a total lapse of objectivity here.

    Why don't you try coming up with an argument for why we should disregard the law in this case? You're the one wanting to show a complete and utter lack of respect for our legal system, the one who wants to toss objectivity aside and rely on some purely subjective measure for trying this 11 year old boy as an adult.

    Consider it or not, that's your right. But you are flat wrong and your whole argument is nothing but an emotional, menstrual knee-jerk reaction to the crime rather than an objective look at justice.

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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    There is no better argument than the fact that he's 11. It's the most sound argument because it follows the law objectively. You can try to insult me by insinuating that there is no common sense to my argument or whatever the **** you thought you were doing, but the fact remains, YOU'RE the one who is having a total lapse of objectivity here.
    If you say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Why don't you try coming up with an argument for why we should disregard the law in this case? You're the one wanting to show a complete and utter lack of respect for our legal system, the one who wants to toss objectivity aside and rely on some purely subjective measure for trying this 11 year old boy as an adult.
    I have given my argument based on logic and our law as it stands. You are trying to say we can't try minors as adults and we do it every day all over the country. This is a fact.

    The rest of your statement completely ignores modern case law and the new laws passed in 2006.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Consider it or not, that's your right. But you are flat wrong and your whole argument is nothing but an emotional, menstrual knee-jerk reaction to the crime rather than an objective look at justice.
    And yet he is being tried as an adult.

    What does this tell you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #179
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Jallman, all you're doing is enforcing my belief that the whole system needs an overhaul.
    That's a reasonable argument and one that could be approached with rationality.

    You're quick to pull the "he's only 11" argument out of the holster and saying that it's the way it is.
    Actually, no, I gave justification for it being the way it is earlier in this thread. I don't think we should be trying kids as adults for several reasons. I will relist them here:

    • There is an expectation that the adults in the child's life are more responsible for the child's behavior than the child, itself is responsible for.
    • There is an expectation that children are not mature enough to understand the far reaching ramifications of their actions.
    • Even when a child knows right from wrong, there is still an understanding that they have no concept of varying degrees of right and wrong, especially over crimes that result in permanent injury.
    • Which leads me to the next point; a child does not understand permanence.
    • A child has a certain blurred line between reality and make believe. Yes, even at 11 years old.
    • The brain of a child is not developed in areas that govern impulse and emotion control.
    • The law doesn't grant certain rights and privileges to children because children cannot handle those rights responsibly, which is exactly why they are treated differently when they are responsible for a crime.


    It also shows that the way it is should not be the way it is.The problem with many laws such as blue laws (which were inherited from English law) and many aspects of the Constitution is that they do not reflect society in the way that it has evolved and adapted to a time of progression. I'm guessing that when these rules first came to be, a pubescent child killing a grown adult outside of the field of battle was about as non-existent as you could get.
    You're talking about two different animals with the blue laws and the criminal application of juvenile and adult court systems. Blue laws would be expected to change with society because they were enforcements of social norms and mores. In this case, we are talking about strict adherence to ordinances governing criminal culpability and application of justice. We can't allow our revulsion against the idea that a child would kill a pregnant woman to dispel objectivity.

    I also hear people talking about case by case basis and that's just not feasible nor beneficial to the pursuit of justice in the criminal court system. That opens the door to a subjectivity that does not permit equitable treatment of all defendants against prosecution. The reason our justice system is effective is that we have immovable guidelines that are well thought out and set in place to limit the fallability of human judgment...to limit our emotional responses to the heinous from eclipsing fair treatment under the law. "Case by case" is simply code, albeit subconsciously, for "let's see how we feel about each kid".

    That's simply not justice.

    Such is not the case here. If we were talking about a kid whose hands slipped and the gun accidentally fired, it's a whole other case. This kid shot a pregnant woman execution style. This is full-blown premeditation, complete with culpability and understanding of motive and rationality.
    You may feel that he had complete culpability, but the law says otherwise. You may feel that he had complete understanding of his motive and rationality, but the objective guidelines put in place to limit our feelings from clouding justice have established a given in this proof that no, he does not understand. That given is established to protect and serve justice for all child defendants, not just the ones we believe in, but all child defendants. If we start moving that line for one, whether he deserves it or not, that line becomes solvent and movable for all of them. That's when objectivity becomes relative...which is really just subjectivity and a total breakdown of justice.

    The first thing I ask myself when I consider a punishment would be "would I want them to live next door to me?"
    Irrelevant to justice. Your feelings about whether you want this kid next to you don't matter.

    I look at this kid, his crime, his intentions, and his psychological state and I tell myself that there is absolutely no chance that I would want to be within driving distance of this kid.
    Your wants have nothing to do with justice and objectivity. I don't mean to offend, but this is exactly the type of emotional response that the law seeks to restrict in the name of justice. What if your kid did something bad, not even murder but just something bad enough to land in court and it was left to someone else's "wants" as to whether your child would receive equitable treatment with the next kid in the court system?

    Parents are responsible for their children to a certain extent, but after you hit a point the fabrications of right and wrong in the human psyche determine what you do and what you don't do.
    That's not true at all else we wouldn't have a "not guilty by reason of mental defect" plea...

    This kid didn't kill his dad's girlfriend and unborn son because the dad was inept. This kid killed her because he's messed up in the head, and if you release him with essentially a slap on the wrist, his own brain tells him that killing again isn't a huge tragedy because the trade-off isn't all that bad.
    No one is saying "slap on the wrist". I haven't heard that argument from any but those who would throw the justice system aside and let their feelings try this kid as an adult.

    Could it be that the emotional response is actually fear driving this mad rush to invalidate our criminal justice system? If it is, keep in mind, that's still emotion driving the argument and not objectivity.
    Last edited by jallman; 04-06-10 at 02:42 PM.

  10. #180
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    Re: Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And yet he is being tried as an adult.

    What does this tell you?
    It tells me that the judge that allowed it is just as emotional and mestrual as you about this case.

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