Should the U.S. legalize drugs for Mexico's benefit?

PonyBoy said:

We are not living in the days of bootlegging.

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How are they differant? Yes I know the Mexican cartels behead people, but from an economic standpoint, how are they differant?

They're different in several ways.

1) There's more money at stake(to be lost)

2) The cartels are 100 times more brazen.

3) The cartels are dealing narcotics not alcohol.(two different addictions)

The main difference is money. These cartels have billions to buy off government officials to get their way.

PonyBoy said:

They're different in several ways.

1) There's more money at stake(to be lost)

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There was plenty of money at stake during Prohibition. Besides, lower costs from a legal market would force a black market to greatly diminish.

PonyBoy said:

2) The cartels are 100 times more brazen.

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Stuff like the Valentine's Day Massacre wasn't brazen? Besides, this is about the economics of the situation.

PonyBoy said:

3) The cartels are dealing narcotics not alcohol.(two different addictions)

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Both are in demand narcotics. From a societal standpoint, I don't see much of a differance

PonyBoy said:

The main difference is money. These cartels have billions to buy off government officials to get their way.

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Another reason to take away their oligopolies. They will compete legitimately or die.

DrunkenAsparagus said:

There was plenty of money at stake during Prohibition. Besides, lower costs from a legal market would force a black market to greatly diminish.



Stuff like the Valentine's Day Massacre wasn't brazen? Besides, this is about the economics of the situation.



Both are in demand narcotics. From a societal standpoint, I don't see much of a differance



Another reason to take away their oligopolies. They will compete legitimately or die.

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Okay, if you think gathering up these cartel families and sitting them down for a "narco power point" meeting is gonna wipe away greed, money, and power, then that's cool.

I would love to be in this narco exec meeting. I wanna see the look on the Zeta families face when Calderone informs them of how things are gonna be done in Mexico. These cartels seem like such reasonable business men, so why wouldn't it go over well! :2wave:

PonyBoy said:

Okay, if you think gathering up these cartel families and sitting them down for a "narco power point" meeting is gonna wipe away greed, money, and power, then that's cool.

I would love to be in this narco exec meeting. I wanna see the look on the Zeta families face when Calderone informs them of how things are gonna be done in Mexico. These cartels seem like such reasonable business men, so why wouldn't it go over well! :2wave:

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Nothing about legalization is going to make these men nice and calm. In black market economies, there are essentially no property rights, contractual obligations, or courts to settle disputes. The only way to settle anything is with firearms. When you make the market legal there are far more easy ways to settle things and prices go done undercutting the cartels and allowing competitors to come in.

PonyBoy said:

No it just doesn't work like that. Cartels are gonna be Cartels no matter what happens. If drugs are legal in the US then those Cartels are still going to be in deadly competition.

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Cartels aren't going to be able to compete with legitimate manufacturers, any more than moonshiners are able to compete with Jack Daniels.

Dittohead not! said:

Cartels aren't going to be able to compete with legitimate manufacturers, any more than moonshiners are able to compete with Jack Daniels.

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You guys really cant fathom just how big these cartels are, and how far their tentacles can/do reach. If you cant see the big picture then you'll never understand the magnitude of these operations. They're not bootleggers and this is not the mafia. And I'm not trying to be a dick but you all have no idea what you're talking about.

DrunkenAsparagus said:

Nothing about legalization is going to make these men nice and calm. In black market economies, there are essentially no property rights, contractual obligations, or courts to settle disputes. The only way to settle anything is with firearms. When you make the market legal there are far more easy ways to settle things and prices go done undercutting the cartels and allowing competitors to come in.

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These cartels own both markets. They call the shots not the government. They have submarines, helicopters, armies, jets, and an unlimited supply of money. Half of the Mexican government is influenced by the cartels. Mexico is one giant cartel > The Mexican Cartel. < Fact.

PonyBoy said:

These cartels own both markets. They call the shots not the government. They have submarines, helicopters, armies, jets, and an unlimited supply of money. Half of the Mexican government is influenced by the cartels. Mexico is one giant cartel > The Mexican Cartel. < Fact.

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So you are saying we won't be able to curtail their primary source of income because they already have so much money? That they would systematically bribe/extort/kill everyone who threatens their income, from head shops that start selling weed, to agro-businesses that grow it, to politicians writing laws about it?

Befuddled_Stoner said:

So you are saying we won't be able to curtail their primary source of income because they already have so much money? That they would systematically bribe/extort/kill everyone who threatens their income, from head shops that start selling weed, to agro-businesses that grow it, to politicians writing laws about it?

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Exactly! Mexico is corrupt to the core. You gotta take into account that Mexico is not America. Do you have any idea how dependent the Latin/Central America is on drug money? Mexico doesn't even supply America with it's cocaine it's FARC/Colombia, and they produce 90% of it. The Cartels are the middle men, and they will do whatever it takes to protect their income. Look at what the Cartels are doing now, and just imagine how they would react to government run drug manufactures.

Legalizing drugs would only fuel a full scale war. The Mexican government against every narco terrorist from Tijuana to Colombia.

PonyBoy said:

You guys really cant fathom just how big these cartels are, and how far their tentacles can/do reach. If you cant see the big picture then you'll never understand the magnitude of these operations. They're not bootleggers and this is not the mafia. And I'm not trying to be a dick but you all have no idea what you're talking about.

These cartels own both markets. They call the shots not the government. They have submarines, helicopters, armies, jets, and an unlimited supply of money. Half of the Mexican government is influenced by the cartels. Mexico is one giant cartel > The Mexican Cartel. < Fact.

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It was your prohibitionist policies that allowed them to get that big and continuing your prohibitionist policies won't make them get any smaller.

PonyBoy said:

Do you really think legalizing drugs is going to turn these cartels into CEO's.

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Legalizing drugs will send these people to wherever they would have been if drugs had never been illegal in the first place.

Besides, prohibition caused these problems, so it's ridiculous to use these problems as an excuse to continue prohibition.

Binary_Digit said:

Legalizing drugs will send these people to wherever they would have been if drugs had never been illegal in the first place.

Besides, prohibition caused these problems, so it's ridiculous to use these problems as an excuse to continue prohibition.

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I'm still trying to figure out post #211.:roll:

PonyBoy said:

I'm still trying to figure out post #211.:roll:

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Prohibition creates a "black market" effect by shifting supply in a less than harmonious manner. Due to the nature of the demand schedule, this had little effect on reducing quantity demanded and increased the profit motive 10 fold (or greater).

Goldenboy219 said:

Prohibition creates a "black market" effect by shifting supply in a less than harmonious manner. Due to the nature of the demand schedule, this had little effect on reducing quantity demanded and increased the profit motive 10 fold (or greater).

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Thanks!:thumbs:

The US should legalize drugs for EVERYBODY'S benefit.

PonyBoy said:

Exactly! Mexico is corrupt to the core. You gotta take into account that Mexico is not America. Do you have any idea how dependent the Latin/Central America is on drug money? Mexico doesn't even supply America with it's cocaine it's FARC/Colombia, and they produce 90% of it. The Cartels are the middle men, and they will do whatever it takes to protect their income. Look at what the Cartels are doing now, and just imagine how they would react to government run drug manufactures.

Legalizing drugs would only fuel a full scale war. The Mexican government against every narco terrorist from Tijuana to Colombia.

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We need a war like that to kill the bastards and take them completely out of the gene pool:shoot:blastem::bomb:

PonyBoy said:

Exactly! Mexico is corrupt to the core. You gotta take into account that Mexico is not America. Do you have any idea how dependent the Latin/Central America is on drug money? Mexico doesn't even supply America with it's cocaine it's FARC/Colombia, and they produce 90% of it. The Cartels are the middle men, and they will do whatever it takes to protect their income. Look at what the Cartels are doing now, and just imagine how they would react to government run drug manufactures.

Legalizing drugs would only fuel a full scale war. The Mexican government against every narco terrorist from Tijuana to Colombia.

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:lamo

Dare they cross the border and attack civilians in a warlike manner; will they be hunted down and captured. Wars are expensive! Criminal enterprises without a high priced market will be short changed to do much of anything.

Pot culture in the entertainment industry is kinda interesting, I think.

Marijuana Law Reform - NORML

Goldenboy219 said:

:lamo

Dare they cross the border and attack civilians in a warlike manner; will they be hunted down and captured. Wars are expensive! Criminal enterprises without a high priced market will be short changed to do much of anything.

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You mean the way we've hunted down and captured Osama Bin Laden?

Goldenboy219 said:

:lamo

Dare they cross the border and attack civilians in a warlike manner; will they be hunted down and captured. Wars are expensive! Criminal enterprises without a high priced market will be short changed to do much of anything.

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We're not talkin about a full scale war in America, we're talking about Mexico. Read the Op again, chief.

PonyBoy said:

These cartels own both markets. They call the shots not the government. They have submarines, helicopters, armies, jets, and an unlimited supply of money. Half of the Mexican government is influenced by the cartels. Mexico is one giant cartel > The Mexican Cartel. < Fact.

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That's where the undercutting come in. Also an open market would provide far easier and less violent ways to settle disputes.

PonyBoy said:

Exactly! Mexico is corrupt to the core. You gotta take into account that Mexico is not America. Do you have any idea how dependent the Latin/Central America is on drug money? Mexico doesn't even supply America with it's cocaine it's FARC/Colombia, and they produce 90% of it. The Cartels are the middle men, and they will do whatever it takes to protect their income. Look at what the Cartels are doing now, and just imagine how they would react to government run drug manufactures.

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No, I don't think so. While Colombia may ship their cocaine directly to the U.S., and circumnavigate Mexico, don't forget that Mexico could produce it's own native drugs, such as peyote, which they can make money off of.

samsmart said:

No, I don't think so. While Colombia may ship their cocaine directly to the U.S., and circumnavigate Mexico, don't forget that Mexico could produce it's own native drugs, such as peyote, which they can make money off of.

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Peyote is in a class by itself. If I recall I belive the Hopi Indians are allowed to use it in their religious rituals.

It's really a gret "mind" drug and some hippie gurus believed it to be a mind expander. I agree with this, having tried it a few times. I liked it but it is the kind of drug that you only have to take a few times. Also it is not addictive.

I think peyote should be legal.

samsmart said:

I think this is the fourth time I've stated this.

Decriminalization and legalization of drugs won't stop drug use but rather drug violence.

Of course we will still get the same number of people in the U.S. who are drug addicts. And I'm fine with that. But it will stop the drug violence in the U.S. and in Mexico when legitimate businesses will be able to manufacture and distribute recreational drugs rather than criminal cartels killing each other over the trade.

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I should stress the difference between decriminalization and legalization, though. Under the most common form of decriminalization, personal drug use is not a crime that is punishable by incarceration. In America, this means you can be fined and hit with a violation similar to a speeding ticket for a small, personal supply. The penalties for intent to distribute are typically still there, though full decriminalization would fine distributers rather than imprison them.

The idea behind decriminalization is harm minimization to users and society, but it does not really stop the black market because those who sell the drugs still do not have access to the courts and police to solve business disputes, as they cannot reveal that which would, at the very least, render huge fines.

If you wanted to break the link between drugs and organized crime, legalization with reasonable regulation would be necessary.

PonyBoy said:

:shock:Wow you guys. If you're really comparing Bill Gates and Pepsi to these psychotic cartels who decapitate their own brothers in competition then I'm just....i mean i don't know what else to say.

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They would not be able to compete with a legal supplier is all they are really saying. The cartels use violent tactics, but this costs money. They can do this and compete because that’s the only way to play the drug game right now, and drug demand is relatively inflexible due to addiction. Legalizing drugs allows legal suppliers to offer the same product that is safer and cheaper than that produced by the cartels. They would have the full might of the courts, police, and if necessary, military behind them, rather than having to spend exorbitant money to evade and fight those same forces. This advantage would make all the difference in terms of what prices they can offer to consumers.

PonyBoy said:

Do you really think legalizing drugs is going to turn these cartels into CEO's. These cartels are killing over the very few corridors leading into the US. I've been to Juarez, Mexico, and it's quite a sight. 18,000 cartel related murders in just four years. These cartels do it their way and no other way but their way. But sure Sam, I cant wait til Calderone informs the cartels on how, when, and where they're going to be doing business for now on. I refuse to believe you're this naive.

If you grow an apple in Colombia for one cent and then cell that apple in America for $20,000 then there's nothing, not one person in this world that could ever stop that!

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Only anybody willing and able to sell an apple for less than $20k...

PonyBoy said:

We're not talkin about a full scale war in America, we're talking about Mexico. Read the Op again, chief.

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What you say would be true only if drugs could only be grown in latin America, and even then only if the cartels were in full control of all of latin America and the waters around it. Even coca, native to Columbia, need not be restricted to the area. Biosynthesis is possible, though not ideal. Before the drug war, significant proportions of the cocaine supply were grown outside of latin America due to attempts to grow it in various areas by colonial powers. Java coca was one success. A History of Cocaine: the Mystery of Coca Java and the Kew Plant