View Poll Results: I support business refusal to do business with:

Voters
47. You may not vote on this poll
  • Black People

    19 40.43%
  • Christians

    18 38.30%
  • Women

    18 38.30%
  • Gay people

    20 42.55%
  • Old People (65 and older)

    16 34.04%
  • Handicapped people (don't want to build ramps, etc)

    17 36.17%
  • Red headed people

    16 34.04%
  • None of the above

    29 61.70%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

  1. #41
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Equality is not treasured, competition more often is. Competition isn't equal.
    Just guessing, but I think he means equality under the law.

  2. #42
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Equality is not treasured, competition more often is. Competition isn't equal. Should a high school drop out have the same probability of landing a job as head researcher in a government lab as a Ph.D. physicist? No. The reason? They're not equal, it's not an equal system. One can very obviously out perform the other. It's based on ability.
    You have probably misunderstood, as I have no intention to debate and/or argue about earned traits.
    I am speaking about equality by birth - deciding not to serve a person because he was born to a couple of Gypsies is one example.
    You don't have the right to be served by every business if that business chooses not to do business with you. You are free to take your business elsewhere, free to protest, free to raise public awareness; but not to force people to behave with their property outside their will when they have not infringed upon the rights of others.
    A business owner may choose not to do business with you, just as a company owner may choose to fire you.
    The issue raises when the reason to the action is based entirely on a born difference; such as gender, race, religion, etc.

    I do not think that you understand the true meaning of the value of equality, and the actual reason as to why such laws even exist.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  3. #43
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    You have probably misunderstood, as I have no intention to debate and/or argue about earned traits.
    I am speaking about equality by birth - deciding not to serve a person because he was born to a couple of Gypsies is one example.
    There's no equality of birth. You think Paris Hilton had to work for her money? You think she had to go through the effort and channels someone born to the lower or middle class must go through to be successful? Birth doesn't guarantee anything and it's not equal either.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    A business owner may choose not to do business with you, just as a company owner may choose to fire you.
    The issue raises when the reason to the action is based entirely on a born difference; such as gender, race, religion, etc.

    I do not think that you understand the true meaning of the value of equality, and the actual reason as to why such laws even exist.
    Why? Atheists can't get elected to office just because of their religious lean. Should there be court order to put them into office? I understand the ideal of equality, but I also understand well the concept of rights. And while I can understand the creation of the laws, it was all stuff we could have done ourselves; without infringing upon the rights of others.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #44
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Why? Atheists can't get elected to office just because of their religious lean. Should there be court order to put them into office?
    As I thought, you have completely misunderstood my position.

    That atheists should have an equal opportunity as anyone else to reach the presidency does not mean that someone should be put there merely because he's an atheist.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  5. #45
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    As I thought, you have completely misunderstood my position.

    That atheists should have an equal opportunity as anyone else to reach the presidency does not mean that someone should be put there merely because he's an atheist.
    But we don't have equal opportunity as anyone else. How is this different from you case? If a business doesn't want Christians say to frequent their store (despite the fact that in this country, that would mean you'd have no consumer base), they don't have equal opportunity to go buy from that store. So you'd endorse a law which forces the business owner to accept the Christians as customers. Why can there be no law to force voters to accept atheist candidates?
    Last edited by Ikari; 03-25-10 at 05:31 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #46
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But we don't have equal opportunity as anyone else.
    Then the answer is one simple statement that goes like "you should".
    So you'd endorse a law which forces the business owner to accept the Christians as customers. Why can there be no law to force voters to accept atheist candidates?
    Did I say that he has to accept them as customers?
    He simply cannot reason his refusal with their religion, that's discrimination.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 03-25-10 at 05:40 PM.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  7. #47
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Then the answer is one simple statement that goes like "you should".
    Perhaps, but we don't. And we'd never get the laws to force it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Did I say that he has to accept them as customers?
    He simply cannot reason his refusal with their religion, that's discrimination.
    Yes you did. You will punish through legal means the discrimination. That means you will force them to accept them as customers or bring down the force of government upon them.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #48
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Perhaps, but we don't. And we'd never get the laws to force it either.
    Never is a strong word, and you'd never be able to predict such a thing.
    Yes you did. You will punish through legal means the discrimination. That means you will force them to accept them as customers or bring down the force of government upon them.
    I will state this again; if the reason is the customer's race, religion, gender, ethnicity, color, etc - it is wrong and it will be punished.
    If he simply refuses to serve a gay customer from a reason that has no relation to his sexuality - it is completely fine.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  9. #49
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Never is a strong word, and you'd never be able to predict such a thing.
    There will be no way to completely rid yourself of affects caused by serendipity of birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I will state this again; if the reason is the customer's race, religion, gender, ethnicity, color, etc - it is wrong and it will be punished.
    If he simply refuses to serve a gay customer from a reason that has no relation to his sexuality - it is completely fine.
    As I said, you'd force them to accept them as customers. As you've just admitted. If someone doesn't want gay people in his store, you'd force them to accept them in their store. Thank you for admitting it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #50
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There will be no way to completely rid yourself of affects caused by serendipity of birth.
    We were speaking about a president who's an atheist not being allowed to get into office because of his religion.
    As I said, you'd force them to accept them as customers. As you've just admitted. If someone doesn't want gay people in his store, you'd force them to accept them in their store. Thank you for admitting it.
    Unless you're being deliberately ignorant, you have made a grave mistake here in drawing assumptions from my posts.

    I will paraphrase it again:
    If a person is gay and the owner chooses to refuse to serve him for a reason that is not the customer's sexuality - it is okay and the owner would not be forced to serve the guy.

    If a person is gay and the owner chooses to refuse to serve him for a reason that is the customer's sexuality - it is wrong and the owner would be fined.

    Conclusion:
    1) An owner would not be forced to serve a gay person.
    2) An owner would have to pay a fine if he'll discriminate against a gay person.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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