View Poll Results: I support business refusal to do business with:

Voters
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  • Black People

    19 40.43%
  • Christians

    18 38.30%
  • Women

    18 38.30%
  • Gay people

    20 42.55%
  • Old People (65 and older)

    16 34.04%
  • Handicapped people (don't want to build ramps, etc)

    17 36.17%
  • Red headed people

    16 34.04%
  • None of the above

    29 61.70%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

  1. #121
    I'm not-low all the time
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I agree, however the principle behind all regulation has a core.
    Two regulating entities i deal with (and what seems daily ) are OSHA and the EPA. At times they can be a real hassle but i do understand the premise behind them. About a year ago a kid who was working for me fell about 40 feet (from a man lift) and shattered his hip and pelvis. He tried to sue both me and the particular client (me for negligence, and the client for liability). I am really tight with an OSHA higher up, and he is well aware that i run a tight ship. Long story short, the kid did not attach his safety harness, leaned too far out the basket and fell on his hip. He tried to say that the equipment malfunctioned. But what he didn't know was that following the accident, OSHA did a little investigation and documented that no safety harness was in use, and there was no equipment failure. I never even had to go to court. Some regulatory bodies are a pain in the ass, but can be a real life saver when the unexpected happens.

    As far as the EPA goes, many new companies attempt to dump their wastes (diluting agents, mixed paints, sand with a high iron oxide composition, oil, etc...) anywhere where people are not. I am not as concerned with the environment (although more recently i have become a bit more aware of what such practices can do) as i am with my compliance costs. It is about $150/ton to dispose of contaminated sand and i have to put a $5000 security deposit with the disposal company because it is less expensive to haul their container myself. The real expense is disposing more dangerous waste such as the leftovers of binary epoxy blends, xylene and MEK compounds, zinc based coatings, etc.... Disposal accounts to about 5%-7% of my total revenue. It pisses me off to no degree that i have to pay thousands of dollars a year in these costs, while other scab companies do what they can to avoid it. Without the EPA making their presence felt, such companies can easily underbid me and my more established competitors due to their lower costs to operate.

    The market does not self correct in regards to this endeavor. Lower bids win, and some clients even attempt to get a lower price by "disposing" the waste themselves.

    Not all regulation is bad regulation. It might be a pain in the ass at times, but without a doubt it is needed in my field.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  2. #122
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Almost all of which come in through right of contract, an essential right of the People. In so much that the products being sold are accurately described, safety issues are clear, etc. But there is no right to be served by any particular business. Economics is not a zero sum game, there are way to create wealth. In the long run, it's not necessarily zero. The individual businesses are thus up to the individual business owners to decide how to run. And they can succeed or fail by their own practices and work. That's their business, that is their job; it is not my job to ensure they have business practices which will help the to succeed the best nor is it the government's job to do so. Especially when those laws and regulations will come at the cost of the rights of the property owner.
    Thanks for the econ lesson I needed it!
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  3. #123
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    You know, if you're going to sit around and bitch about people not presenting serious arguments or debating in a productive manner; perhaps you should then follow your own advice.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #124
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You know, if you're going to sit around and bitch about people not presenting serious arguments or debating in a productive manner; perhaps you should then follow your own advice.
    Would you have liked me to instead correct the inaccuracies? Of course wealth generation is not a zero sum game (i never said it was). However, in the long run all economic profits and rents go to zero (or as close to zero as they can be). Markets do not always self correct and we then have to deal with the externalities generated from market failure. Yes there are endless instances of government failure, but the "costs" are far more spread out in some regards.

    Market failure is very much real. The externalities generated do at times need to be internalized via taxation, regulation, or a combination of the two. Sometimes they self correct short term. Most of the time they do not. I would much rather take my chances with less bigotry in business than have a religious expectation that the mess will clean itself up.

    Of course, if you really do not like a law, nothing forces you to follow it. Sometimes i am late and need to speed. I can care less what the state thinks about what i put into my body. I like gambling on sports.

    If you want to open a business and be a bigot about it. Go right ahead. I will still support legislation that makes some practices extremely difficult and punishes those who find it irresistible not to to be a bigoted asshole.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  5. #125
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Right, you already argued that without any applicable logic and based on completely emotion based rhetoric. Got anything else?
    Care to show the emotional rhetoric? You can't. Thanks for trying.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #126
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Care to show the emotional rhetoric? You can't. Thanks for trying.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...rounds-14.html Thanks for playing.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  7. #127
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Two regulating entities i deal with (and what seems daily ) are OSHA and the EPA. At times they can be a real hassle but i do understand the premise behind them. About a year ago a kid who was working for me fell about 40 feet (from a man lift) and shattered his hip and pelvis. He tried to sue both me and the particular client (me for negligence, and the client for liability). I am really tight with an OSHA higher up, and he is well aware that i run a tight ship. Long story short, the kid did not attach his safety harness, leaned too far out the basket and fell on his hip. He tried to say that the equipment malfunctioned. But what he didn't know was that following the accident, OSHA did a little investigation and documented that no safety harness was in use, and there was no equipment failure. I never even had to go to court. Some regulatory bodies are a pain in the ass, but can be a real life saver when the unexpected happens.

    As far as the EPA goes, many new companies attempt to dump their wastes (diluting agents, mixed paints, sand with a high iron oxide composition, oil, etc...) anywhere where people are not. I am not as concerned with the environment (although more recently i have become a bit more aware of what such practices can do) as i am with my compliance costs. It is about $150/ton to dispose of contaminated sand and i have to put a $5000 security deposit with the disposal company because it is less expensive to haul their container myself. The real expense is disposing more dangerous waste such as the leftovers of binary epoxy blends, xylene and MEK compounds, zinc based coatings, etc.... Disposal accounts to about 5%-7% of my total revenue. It pisses me off to no degree that i have to pay thousands of dollars a year in these costs, while other scab companies do what they can to avoid it. Without the EPA making their presence felt, such companies can easily underbid me and my more established competitors due to their lower costs to operate.

    The market does not self correct in regards to this endeavor. Lower bids win, and some clients even attempt to get a lower price by "disposing" the waste themselves.

    Not all regulation is bad regulation. It might be a pain in the ass at times, but without a doubt it is needed in my field.
    First off my condolences. You have to work with two of the most obnoxious departments ever created. What you've described though can be explained through necessary and proper though. For instance, the chems. you work with can kill people, or severely and provably destroy an eco system......so no problem with protecting the public from those harms. OSHA regs. as well would be fine if it stayed at equipment maintenance and proper safety gear mandates. But you know as well as I do that these boards go well beyond what was ever necessary.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  8. #128
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    First off my condolences. You have to work with two of the most obnoxious departments ever created. Its not the departments that are obnoxious, its the people, and there have been nasty people in these agencies in the past. Things are better now, but not perfect. OHSA and the golden boy should counter sue this boy and he should face a huge fine for lying.What you've described though can be explained through necessary and proper though. For instance, the chems. you work with can kill people, or severely and provably destroy an eco system......so no problem with protecting the public from those harms. OSHA regs. as well would be fine if it stayed at equipment maintenance and proper safety gear mandates. But you know as well as I do that these boards go well beyond what was ever necessary.
    Things have really changed, in my day, the environment was not nearly as well protected and respected as it is today..
    But, some do go overboard....human nature...

  9. #129
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Would you have liked me to instead correct the inaccuracies? Of course wealth generation is not a zero sum game (i never said it was). However, in the long run all economic profits and rents go to zero (or as close to zero as they can be). Markets do not always self correct and we then have to deal with the externalities generated from market failure. Yes there are endless instances of government failure, but the "costs" are far more spread out in some regards.
    And that's a better answer. Honestly, I had misinterpreted what you had meant earlier and that was all. This would have cleared away that from the get go. I don't pretend to think that market forces will correct itself. There is some amount of active monitoring and intelligent consumerism meant on our behave as well. However, in the end I can't see using government force against the rights and liberties of the individual when that individual has not infringed upon the rights of others. Is it stupid to make a business which deals with consumers and have it bigoted in some manner? Yes it's stupid, but I'm not going to make "stupid" illegal. There are easy ways to rectify the problems without evoking the heavy hand of government.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #130
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    Re: Its ok for a business owner to refuse to do business with...

    Within the conditions I stated in the other thread (i.e. not the only provider of a necessary service in a given area and they tell you at the time of booking for hotels and the like that they don't serve certain groups) I'm fine with a privately-owned business not allowing any of those groups. It would probably be bad for business though.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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