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Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous grounds

Should B&B owners be allowed to refuse gay couples?

  • Yes, they should be allowed to refuse anyone for any reason

    Votes: 48 59.3%

  • The should be allowed to refuse if it violates their religious beliefs

    Votes: 2 2.5%

  • They should be fined for discriminating against gays

    Votes: 11 13.6%

  • They should lose their B&B license for discriminating against gays

    Votes: 14 17.3%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 6 7.4%
  • Total voters
    81
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

I put "OTHER", if the gay couple offends other patrons and has the potential to hurt the owners business he should have the right to deny service.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Aunt Spiker said:
What on earth is that comparison suppose to mean?

You've failed to understand the difference between discrimination and preferential treatment.

If a firefighter or elderly were NOT allowed to eat at an establishment because they were a firefighter or were elderly then it would be discrimination and people would be pissed.

There's nothing wrong with a business giving a perk or benefit to attract customers or show their appreciation, etc. . . it's widely accepted and breaks no laws.
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OKAY, good Point! What if we had a restaurant that did preferential treatment to Whites? Say 15% off? So is that a good example of "preferential" treatment? Or would you some how see this as discrimination?
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:
Entirely. Show me where I said any of these things:





Or were you quoting somebody else and projecting those quotes on to me? Thus making it a strawman?



Translation: LMR has nothing to else to provide to the thread so he complains about people being stupid in true Libertarian fashion.

I laid out my argument. If somebody runs a business and this business is taxed by the government, the government endorses the policies of the business by legitimization through taxation. It is the reason illegal drugs are not taxed while legally sold drugs are.
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Um, People who engage in Illegal activities are sometimes charged for tax evasion when the income from said activities are not paid.

Also, I know that Oklahoma had a Stamp Tax for Marijuana about 20 years or so ago (for the purposes of having another indite-able offence) so your claim about government taxation equals government approval is somewhat weak.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

What about a nudist colony or some other specialized service? Should they have a right to cater to a specific clientele?

Let's say these people handled this situation differently. Say they clearly outlined in their brochure that their B&B offers family oriented accommodations to married couples only, and will not accept homosexual or unmarried couples. Should they have a right create a B&B catering to those with traditional values?
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Sure there is. You have a right to be naked, just not anywhere you please. (there may not be an amendment saying "the right to be naked" but any law that would allow you to be arrested in your home for being so -- or in a nudist colony -- would be unconstitutional, right?

I'll use a better example.

You have a constitutional right to practice your religion. You do NOT have a right to do it anywhere you damn well please. You cannot come into my store and start singing a hymn or passing out Bibles or trying to convert my customers.

I can set standards for my store so long as they are not discriminatory.
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DAMM!! And i was going to use an example of a Store that was a Clothing Optional (Nude Mandatory) and that would be discriminatory against Mormons (Magic Underwear) oh well.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Well, fortunately, your views are not the law of the land. :)

I am glad we no longer have stores with signs saying "No Irish" or businesses that refuse to serve blacks or Jews or whatever. And much of that would have never happened without laws.
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Wrong, Jim Crow and all that was created by guberment and such ilk because the free market was breaking down the cultural barriers. The response is of course "there otta be a law."
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Shadow Serious said:
Wrong, Jim Crow and all that was created by guberment and such ilk because the free market was breaking down the cultural barriers. The response is of course "there otta be a law."
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Can't believe I didn't think about that in the Jim Crowe angle, but yes that is absolutely true, some citizen's didn't want the market to change the exclusion of blacks from establishments and didn't want intermingling of race, so they had those laws put in place to force segregation. It's a perfect example of laws trouncing rights. However, and as I conceded, this is a story out of the U.K. so it really is their business.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
In most of the US, it is still legal to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.
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WRONG.

That is not the case.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
In most of the US, it is still legal to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.
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What if the B&B could show that it refused to rent single-bed room to 2 hetero men, or that it has rented 2-bed rooms to men who appeared to be gay?

I suppose next you're going to claim that a B&B which refuses to rent to an unmarried hetero couple is discriminating against heteros?

Scripture bans a behavior, not an orientation.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Jerry said:
What if the B&B could show that it refused to rent single-bed room to 2 hetero men, or that it has rented 2-bed rooms to men who appeared to be gay?
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What if? What would that mean? The owners definitely wanted to discriminate against a gay couple. They said so.

Scripture bans a behavior, not an orientation.
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In this case it was definitely the orientation that got banned. The couple hadn't even checked in. It was nothing about their behaviour, it was the fact of their being gay.

Such discrimination is against the law. Period. Are you advocating that they should have broken the law?
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Andalublue said:
Such discrimination is against the law. Period. Are you advocating that they should have broken the law?
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Some of us are advocating that the law be changed.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:
Some of us are advocating that the law be changed.
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For reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with business.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Vader said:
WRONG.

That is not the case.
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Really? Do you have a link? It was my understanding that gay rights laws have been passed only in a few states and cities.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Jerry said:
What if the B&B could show that it refused to rent single-bed room to 2 hetero men, or that it has rented 2-bed rooms to men who appeared to be gay?

I suppose next you're going to claim that a B&B which refuses to rent to an unmarried hetero couple is discriminating against heteros?

Scripture bans a behavior, not an orientation.
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Who cares about scripture? Scripture has no place in our laws.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Andalublue said:
What if? What would that mean? The owners definitely wanted to discriminate against a gay couple. They said so.



In this case it was definitely the orientation that got banned. The couple hadn't even checked in. It was nothing about their behaviour, it was the fact of their being gay.

Such discrimination is against the law. Period. Are you advocating that they should have broken the law?
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No I'm saying it shouldn't be against the law.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:
Some of us are advocating that the law be changed.
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Then which aspects of discrimination are you willing to accept? Which groups are you happy to see discriminated against, and which not?

Do you feel that the right of individual business-owners to operate their commerce as they see fit, however discriminatory that may be, trumps the rights of every citizen to receive equal and equitable treatment when they participate in the economy?

Personally I'm happy for society, in the form of the government, to intervene to ensure that all citizens receive such equal treatment when the free-market system clearly can't and won't guarantee impartial and non-prejudiced treatment.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Andalublue said:
Then which aspects of discrimination are you willing to accept? Which groups are you happy to see discriminated against, and which not?
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Any 'groups'. Any person. For any reason.

Do you feel that the right of individual business-owners to operate their commerce as they see fit, however discriminatory that may be, trumps the rights of every citizen to receive equal and equitable treatment when they participate in the economy?
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I don't believe that any citizen has any 'right' to receive equal treatment by anyone except the government.

A business owner should have the right to serve and refuse to serve whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish. (and hire and refuse to hire) No one has a right to be served by someone else. A business owner discriminating against someone (such as someone not dressed properly) isn't violating that person's "right" to be served by them since no such right exists. I do not have any "right" to force someone else to serve me against their will.

Additionally, no one has the right to be on someone's property against their wishes. And the business owner does own the property of their business. If we can throw people off of our property, such as our home, including law enforcement without a warrant or just cause, then why the hell can't a business owner do the same with their business? Why do they lose their property rights simply by opening a business?


Personally I'm happy for society, in the form of the government, to intervene to ensure that all citizens receive such equal treatment when the free-market system clearly can't and won't guarantee impartial and non-prejudiced treatment.
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And I'm not happy about a society that forces a business owner to give up their property rights.

No one has any 'right' to impartial and non-prejudiced treatment.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:
Any 'groups'. Any person. For any reason.


I don't believe that any citizen has any 'right' to receive equal treatment by anyone except the government.

A business owner should have the right to serve and refuse to serve whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish. (and hire and refuse to hire) No one has a right to be served by someone else. A business owner discriminating against someone (such as someone not dressed properly) isn't violating that person's "right" to be served by them since no such right exists. I do not have any "right" to force someone else to serve me against their will.

Additionally, no one has the right to be on someone's property against their wishes. And the business owner does own the property of their business. If we can throw people off of our property, such as our home, including law enforcement without a warrant or just cause, then why the hell can't a business owner do the same with their business? Why do they lose their property rights simply by opening a business?



And I'm not happy about a society that forces a business owner to give up their property rights.

No one has any 'right' to impartial and non-prejudiced treatment.
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You seem very keen on protecting the "rights" of business and property owners, but reluctant to recognise any other kinds of rights. Indeed you place any rights, other than those of property, in quote marks. This suggests that you seem sceptical of anyone having a claim to a right other than those conferred by material ownership.

In the interests of clarity, what rights do you believe exist? What makes the rights you seem to recognise valid, and those you refuse to recognise, invalid?
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Who cares about scripture? Scripture has no place in our laws.
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Way to miss the point.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Andalublue said:
You seem very keen on protecting the "rights" of business and property owners, but reluctant to recognise any other kinds of rights. Indeed you place any rights, other than those of property, in quote marks. This suggests that you seem sceptical of anyone having a claim to a right other than those conferred by material ownership.

In the interests of clarity, what rights do you believe exist? What makes the rights you seem to recognise valid, and those you refuse to recognise, invalid?
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She's being consistent with her sovereignty argument regarding abortion. Property is an extension of your self, so as rivrrat argues that she should be able to evict an unwanted ZEF, so to should she be able to evict any other person from any of her property for any or no reason.

You can abort if you don't like the race of your unborn, so it follows that you should be able to remove someone from your land if you don't like their race, sex, religion, or any reason at all.

I personally take no issue with first term abortion, so I'm willing to sign onto her argument. When there's a way to tell if your child is gay, women will be able to abort if they don't want a gay child; so to should people be able to kick gays or any group off their land simply out of personal religious bias.
 
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Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Andalublue said:
You seem very keen on protecting the "rights" of business and property owners, but reluctant to recognise any other kinds of rights. Indeed you place any rights, other than those of property, in quote marks. This suggests that you seem sceptical of anyone having a claim to a right other than those conferred by material ownership.

In the interests of clarity, what rights do you believe exist? What makes the rights you seem to recognise valid, and those you refuse to recognise, invalid?
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The rights that exist are the ones my society has defined for us and protect for us on our behalf.

All other rights expressed are 'rights'. ;) And the ones I disagree with that my society protects are 'rights' too. LOL

Anywho, no one has any right not to be offended by someone else's actions. No one has any right to be served by someone else against their will.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:
The rights that exist are the ones my society has defined for us and protect for us on our behalf.

All other rights expressed are 'rights'. ;) And the ones I disagree with that my society protects are 'rights' too. LOL

Anywho, no one has any right not to be offended by someone else's actions. No one has any right to be served by someone else against their will.
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Just wait until a prostitute refuses to serve someone because she doesn't like their race, then we're going to have all the same people on this thread sticking up ;) for the John and trying to force that prostitute to have sex with anyone who walks through the door. Rape FTW :2wave:
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:
The rights that exist are the ones my society has defined for us and protect for us on our behalf.
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Well, the society of the United Kingdom has defined the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation. In the US society has defined that you have the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of race. You clearly don't like this, which is your prerogative. Are you saying that the only rights you recognise are those stipulated in the US Bill of Rights?

All other rights expressed are 'rights'. ;) And the ones I disagree with that my society protects are 'rights' too. LOL
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Well, at least that's consistent.:lol:

Anywho, no one has any right not to be offended by someone else's actions. No one has any right to be served by someone else against their will.
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You cannot grant or deny the right to be offended. I will be offended by whatever the hell makes me so. I will also maintain that Government may and must use legislation where necessary to ensure we do not have a society that victimises, discriminates unfairly or otherwise attacks the equal treatment of its citizens.

I have no doubt you argue and act consistently in accordance with your beliefs, I just don't share them.
 
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Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Andalublue said:
Well, the society of the United Kingdom has defined the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation. In the US society has defined that you have the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of race. You clearly don't like this, which is your prerogative. Are you saying that the only rights you recognise are those stipulated in the US Bill of Rights?
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I recognize that we have all the rights my country has granted us. I just don't agree with the stupid ones. Like the 'right to be served by someone against their will'. Or the 'right to invade private property against the will of the owner.'


You cannot grant or deny the right to be offended. I will be offended by whatever the hell makes me so. I will also maintain that Government may and must use legislation where necessary to ensure we do not have a society that victimises, discriminates unfairly or otherwise attacks the equal treatment of its citizens.
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I agree the government should not discriminate. But individual citizens have no 'right' to expect that from other individual citizens. If I don't want you on my property for ANY reason, I can make you leave. By pretty much any means necessary depending on the state. That shouldn't change just because I own a business. I should not LOSE rights when I own a business and every other person in the country should not gain the right to be served by me against my will.

The reason I used the 'right not to be offended' is because that's what this is all about. Someone gets denied service somewhere and their wittle feelings get hurt so they have to bitch, moan, complain and use our court systems to try and FORCE someone to be nicer to them.

It's ****ing retarded.

I have no doubt you argue and act consistently in accordance with your beliefs, I just don't share them.
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Of course I do. :)

Jerry said:
Just wait until a prostitute refuses to serve someone because she doesn't like their race, then we're going to have all the same people on this thread sticking up ;) for the John and trying to force that prostitute to have sex with anyone who walks through the door. Rape FTW :2wave:
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LOL Exactly.
 
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