Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous grounds

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:

I'm not obsessed about anything.

First, there is no risk of full scale bigoted abuse. Not even a small risk, much less a "too great" one. You seriously going to sit there and tell me that there's a "great risk" of every business owner in this country, in THIS day and age, (or even a majority of them) openly discriminating against a group of people? I laugh at the mere suggestion of such a thing. We all know the days of wide scale bigotry are far behind us.

But yes, a business owner should have full legal say in who they serve and who they do not serve. Why should they be forced to SERVE someone they don't want to?

And yeah, if a *private* business owner wants to have white and black and latino water fountains, they should be allowed to. Where is the logical, unemotional reason to disallow it?



Sure, they've said it's illegal. And I think it should be legal. There's absolutely no reason for it NOT to be legal.


Why should you have to welcome everyone? Why should a business owner be forced, against their will, to serve someone they find reprehensible? Isn't that in the same boat as slavery? Forcing someone to serve someone they don't want to? It is THEIR business, THEIR property, they should have full control over who they allow or disallow on their own property. For ANY reason.

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Gays cant marry, gays can't adopt children, gays can't visit their significant other in restaurants, gays can't stay at B&Bs, they can't have sex in some states. No. The risk of full scale discrimination is negligible.....:lol: -

It is funny that you are the same person who complained for 14 pages about women not being allowed to serve on submarines because of some invented employment right you made up.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

Really? Why not?

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Indeed! because there is absolutely no difference...gay is black is gay...is black. ummm...and gay.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

Gays cant marry, gays can't adopt children, gays can't visit their significant other in restaurants, gays can't stay at B&Bs, they can't have sex in some states. No. The risk of full scale discrimination is negligible.....:lol:

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Seiously? You mean...throughout history...people in ALL CULTURES and ALL RACES have taken the stance that homosexuality may be against the societal norms?

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

VanceMack said:

Indeed! because there is absolutely no difference...gay is black is gay...is black. ummm...and gay.

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Can you tell us the genetic argument for skin color?

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

Gays cant marry, gays can't adopt children, gays can't visit their significant other in restaurants, gays can't stay at B&Bs, they can't have sex in some states. No. The risk of full scale discrimination is negligible.....:lol:

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Hold up. You are getting ahead of the argument and assuming too much here. The state is not the same as private.........yet, but don't worry, the nanny staters are trying their damndest to get it there. There is a HUGE difference between a bad business owner allowing bigotry to control their business decisions and a state denying something between two consenting adults. For instance, marriage should only be between the church and couple, business should be between consumer and provider, and bedroom activities between consenting adults is only the business of two consenting adults.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

VanceMack said:

Seiously? You mean...throughout history...people in ALL CULTURES and ALL RACES have taken the stance that homosexuality may be against the societal norms?

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It is too bad popularity is not a factor for determining whether something is good or bad. Slavery has also been embraced by all people of all races. Are you implying that making people slaves should be fine? You're smarter than that VanceMack.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

LaMidRighter said:

Hold up. You are getting ahead of the argument and assuming too much here. The state is not the same as private.........yet, but don't worry, the nanny staters are trying their damndest to get it there. There is a HUGE difference between a bad business owner allowing bigotry to control their business decisions and a state denying something between two consenting adults. For instance, marriage should only be between the church and couple, business should be between consumer and provider, and bedroom activities between consenting adults is only the business of two consenting adults.

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If a state allows business owners who provide a service to discriminate based on race, gender, sexuality, as it often has and still does, it is just as complicit in discrimination as the business owner. There is absolutely no difference in a state engaging in discrimination and allowing it.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

It is too bad popularity is not a factor for determining whether something is good or bad. Slavery has also been embraced by all people of all races. Are you implying that making people slaves should be fine? You're smarter than that VanceMack.

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Im saying people have a right to their moral positions and beliefs and those beliefs have transcended race. Some institutions were always wrong...and why we dont focus more on the fact that slaves were and always have been held by people of ALL races and try and point that out and maybe do something about that even TODAY is beyond me...well...its not...we can really bang that drum and get a lot of mileage out of it, cant we...

Some issues are a little different. many people believe that moral issues transcend race. And while there is no room to attempt to DENY people their right to live as they choose (and I dont see anyone doing that) there also should not exist a requirement to force people to accept BEHAVIOR they find morally wrong.

World of difference there...

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

If a state allows business owners who provide a service to discriminate based on race, gender, sexuality, as it often has and still does, it is just as complicit in discrimination as the business owner. There is absolutely no difference in a state engaging in discrimination and allowing it.

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How do you figure?

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

If a state allows business owners who provide a service to discriminate based on race, gender, sexuality, as it often has and still does, it is just as complicit in discrimination as the business owner. There is absolutely no difference in a state engaging in discrimination and allowing it.

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So you are saying organ izations like the NAACP should be forced to disband and their college loan and grant programs should be abolished because they are discriminatory?

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:

I'm not obsessed about anything.

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Nearly all of your arguments operate from the premise of "letting your freak flag fly"; meaning "i should be able to do whatever i want".

First, there is no risk of full scale bigoted abuse. Not even a small risk, much less a "too great" one. You seriously going to sit there and tell me that there's a "great risk" of every business owner in this country, in THIS day and age, (or even a majority of them) openly discriminating against a group of people?

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Lets keep our thinking clear. This poll is in regards to the situation in the UK. I am not sure how familiar you are with the UK, or large cities in Europe in general, but London is filled with demographic clusters. There are Chinese, Jewish, Turkish, etc... areas all throughout London. If it were to become both legal and acceptable to openly discriminate; this behavior can very well spread like a wild fire.

Firms operate under the pretense to maximize profit. Blind discrimination only shortchanges this objective, and such practices have no place in the business world.

Will markets correct such faulty business practices? Of course. The question is not yes or no, but when? How many people are we willing to let be discriminated against in the effort to "do what we want"? You do not even seem aware of the side effects of such practices. The gay couple in question will have a much higher propensity to feel prejudice towards the "type" of people who discriminated against them. Hate fuels hate. This is the type of **** you do not want in society.

I laugh at the mere suggestion of such a thing. We all know the days of wide scale bigotry are far behind us.

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Due to legislation.... Not because we were "letting our freak flag fly".

But yes, a business owner should have full legal say in who they serve and who they do not serve. Why should they be forced to SERVE someone they don't want to?

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Forced to serve? When a firm opens its doors, it is choosing to serve based on a specific barrier known as price. You act as if this couple did something wrong and as far as we know this is not the case. Was their money not good enough

And yeah, if a *private* business owner wants to have white and black and latino water fountains, they should be allowed to. Where is the logical, unemotional reason to disallow it?

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I have a mentor who has taught me quite a bit about business. This man is most likely far more wealthier than we will ever imagine and the amount of knowledge i gained from him cannot be purchased.

One of the very first things i was taught about operating a business, especially one based on service, is that treating people with disrespect (be they customers, employees, partners) creates enemies. You do not allocate capital and labor in an effort to project morality on the people around you; it is to maximize profits. Creating enemies is in no way a logical mechanism to achieve such a goal.

Creating enemies will only diminish profits in the long run (and most likely the short run as well). So please try your hardest to explain to me what the **** is so logical about that?

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

LaMidRighter said:

How do you figure?

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Try telling your boss to fire all the women in your workplace and see how fast the state steps in. The state, at least in the U.S., has acknowledged that it is complicit when it turns a blind eye to blatant discrimination.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Goldenboy219 said:

Firms operate under the pretense to maximize profit. Blind discrimination only shortchanges this objective, and such practices have no place in the business world.

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Indeed. People who make bad business decisions generally don't stay in business. What's that got to do with the legality of it, though?

Will markets correct such faulty business practices? Of course. The question is not yes or no, but when? How many people are we willing to let be discriminated against in the effort to "do what we want"? You do not even seem aware of the side effects of such practices. The gay couple in question will have a much higher propensity to feel prejudice towards the "type" of people who discriminated against them. Hate fuels hate. This is the type of **** you do not want in society.

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No, hate only fuels hate when both sides are hating. I've been discriminated against. It hasn't made me "hate". If a person becomes hateful due to the actions of another hateful person, that's really their own fault.

Forced to serve? When a firm opens its doors, it is choosing to serve based on a specific barrier known as price. You act as if this couple did something wrong and as far as we know this is not the case. Was their money not good enough

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No, their money was NOT good enough apparently.

I have a mentor who has taught me quite a bit about business. This man is most likely far more wealthier than we will ever imagine and the amount of knowledge i gained from him cannot be purchased.

One of the very first things i was taught about operating a business, especially one based on service, is that treating people with disrespect (be they customers, employees, partners) creates enemies. You do not allocate capital and labor in an effort to project morality on the people around you; it is to maximize profits. Creating enemies is in no way a logical mechanism to achieve such a goal.

Creating enemies will only diminish profits in the long run (and most likely the short run as well). So please try your hardest to explain to me what the **** is so logical about that?

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I never stated anything at all about how logical the actions of the *business owners* were. I was referencing the actions of the state by way of the legality of it.

The business owners are hateful ****tards and I hope their business fails miserably. But it still should be, IMO, their right as business people to serve and refuse to serve whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Goldenboy219 said:

Nearly all of your arguments operate from the premise of "letting your freak flag fly"; meaning "i should be able to do whatever i want".



Lets keep our thinking clear. This poll is in regards to the situation in the UK. I am not sure how familiar you are with the UK, or large cities in Europe in general, but London is filled with demographic clusters. There are Chinese, Jewish, Turkish, etc... areas all throughout London. If it were to become both legal and acceptable to openly discriminate; this behavior can very well spread like a wild fire.

Firms operate under the pretense to maximize profit. Blind discrimination only shortchanges this objective, and such practices have no place in the business world.

Will markets correct such faulty business practices? Of course. The question is not yes or no, but when? How many people are we willing to let be discriminated against in the effort to "do what we want"? You do not even seem aware of the side effects of such practices. The gay couple in question will have a much higher propensity to feel prejudice towards the "type" of people who discriminated against them. Hate fuels hate. This is the type of **** you do not want in society.



Due to legislation.... Not because we were "letting our freak flag fly".



Forced to serve? When a firm opens its doors, it is choosing to serve based on a specific barrier known as price. You act as if this couple did something wrong and as far as we know this is not the case. Was their money not good enough



I have a mentor who has taught me quite a bit about business. This man is most likely far more wealthier than we will ever imagine and the amount of knowledge i gained from him cannot be purchased.

One of the very first things i was taught about operating a business, especially one based on service, is that treating people with disrespect (be they customers, employees, partners) creates enemies. You do not allocate capital and labor in an effort to project morality on the people around you; it is to maximize profits. Creating enemies is in no way a logical mechanism to achieve such a goal.

Creating enemies will only diminish profits in the long run (and most likely the short run as well). So please try your hardest to explain to me what the **** is so logical about that?

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Here is the point some posters are missing. No one here from what I can assertain said anything about pissing customers off and unfairly discriminating being a good thing, in fact just about everyone said it is the exact opposite. What many are arguing is that private businesses that cater to the public shouldn't be compelled to cater to someone because of government interference.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

VanceMack said:

So you are saying organ izations like the NAACP should be forced to disband and their college loan and grant programs should be abolished because they are discriminatory?

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1. NAACP does not run a business. Thus why it is 'tax-exempt'.
2. NAACP does not require you to be black to be a member
3. NAACP does not provide loans or grant programs based on race.

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But I think the NAACP today is a joke so lets disband it just because it is a failure as a NGO.

Here is the form if you want to join:

http://www.naacp.org/get-involved/membership/member.pdf

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

LaMidRighter said:

Outstanding point! I would say I don't want any couple straight, gay, etc. mugging down in communal areas because I don't want to see it........and I'm a pretty easy going guy when it comes to things, so I can only imagine what my more uptight customers would be going through.

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This is slightly off-topic. There was no suggestion that the middle-aged gay couple were "mugging down" (whatever that might be). They just turned up and were refused the service that they has booked in good faith.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Andalublue said:

This is slightly off-topic. There was no suggestion that the middle-aged gay couple were "mugging down" (whatever that might be). They just turned up and were refused the service that they has booked in good faith.

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The point though was that certain behaviors may not be conducive to keeping other customers happy, so a decision to bar those things may further influence business policy.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

1. NAACP does not run a business. Thus why it is 'tax-exempt'.
2. NAACP does not require you to be black to be a member
3. NAACP does not provide loans or grant programs based on race.

---------------------

But I think the NAACP today is a joke so lets disband it just because it is a failure as a NGO.

Here is the form if you want to join:

http://www.naacp.org/get-involved/membership/member.pdf

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Oh no...no...lets not 'let it disband'...thats chicken ****. Lets FORCE it to disband...because really...in this day and age ANY form of discrim ination is just plain WRONG. No college funds, no affirmative action, no black chamber of commerce (how racist can you get), no special recognitions or awards ceremonies...none of that...just LEVEL the playing field...NO bias...

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

Try telling your boss to fire all the women in your workplace and see how fast the state steps in. The state, at least in the U.S., has acknowledged that it is complicit when it turns a blind eye to blatant discrimination.

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Okay, that has absolutely nothing to do with your statement that it's the state's responsibility. How is it logically the state's responsibility when they take money and don't fund the business? I'm looking for logic and something justifyable, not emotion.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

VanceMack said:

Oh no...no...lets not 'let it disband'...thats chicken ****. Lets FORCE it to disband.
..because really...in this day and age ANY form of discrim ination is just plain WRONG. No college funds, no affirmative action, no black chamber of commerce (how racist can you get), no special recognitions or awards ceremonies...none of that...just LEVEL the playing field...NO bias...

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lets disband it just because it is a failure as a NGO

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What part of this didn't you get? Ah crap forgot the apostrophe.

let's disband it just because it is a failure as a NGO

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Happy now?

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

LaMidRighter said:

Okay, that has absolutely nothing to do with your statement that it's the state's responsibility. How is it logically the state's responsibility when they take money and don't fund the business? I'm looking for logic and something justifyable, not emotion.

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The state benefitingthrough taxes from a business which actively discriminates, does not mean the state endorses the discrimination? Are you serious?

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:

Indeed. People who make bad business decisions generally don't stay in business. What's that got to do with the legality of it, though?

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Of course. The question is about when.... How many people are we going to allow to be discriminated until the firm fails? How much hate and counter prejudiced are we going to allow to transpire until the firm fails?

No, hate only fuels hate when both sides are hating. I've been discriminated against. It hasn't made me "hate". If a person becomes hateful due to the actions of another hateful person, that's really their own fault.

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What you fail to understand is that not everyone is you, and you are not everyone. Hate fuels hate, otherwise all of this "give peace a chance" jargon would have worked by now. When the terrorists crashed into the towers (because of hate), the majority of Americans were equally up in arms in hate as a natural reaction. Newton was spot on (not only within the realm of physics). For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

No, their money was NOT good enough apparently.

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Therefore it had nothing to do about operating a business and all to do with ignorance. If you do not like someone, give them ****ty service if you feel that strongly. To openly disrespect a person based on the feeling of moral superiority opens the door to hate and enemies. Repeating myself: there is no place for such behavior in society, especially business. The spillover effects will far outweigh fining a bad business owner for making discrimination part of his business practice.

I never stated anything at all about how logical the actions of the *business owners* were. I was referencing the actions of the state by way of the legality of it.

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Again.... Hate fuels hate, and the cost of spillover effects associated with such emotion far outweigh the benefits of allowing such practices to remain optional.

The business owners are hateful ****tards and I hope their business fails miserably. But it still should be, IMO, their right as business people to serve and refuse to serve whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish.

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Until someone gets hurt, killed and/or property gets destroyed. Then what? Is it then time for state involvement? :roll: This has absolutely nothing to do with business and everything to do with discrimination.

Until you can prove that by serving this gay couple, the firm in question would have reduced profitability; you are dead wrong. Again.... If they were talking about sucking **** and ass ****ing in the presence of others, it would be an entirely different scenario.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

What part of this didn't you get? Ah crap forgot the apostrophe.



Happy now?

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The second you see me strap on the spelling or grammar Nazi armband...you have my permission (no...my request) to shoot me.

There is a world of difference between letting go of something because it isnt useful and forcing them to disband because people dont like it. Saying let it go is too easy. Since we are in the mode of forcing people to accept all, well...isnt it time we legislated ALL groups that exist primarily to serve any bias or interest groups into oblivion?

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Andalublue said:

This is slightly off-topic. There was no suggestion that the middle-aged gay couple were "mugging down" (whatever that might be). They just turned up and were refused the service that they has booked in good faith.

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I agree. My point was that there are reasons to discriminate if the service of someone will effect your bottom line. Clubs do this all the time. Too many guys in the club, they will only let girls in or guys who come with girls. Why? Because barring it being a male gay club, guys do not show off to other guys by purchasing them overpriced and expensive drinks.

Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Hatuey said:

The state benefiting from a business which actively discriminates, through taxes, does not mean the state endorses the discrimination? Are you serious?

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Are you? The state doesn't "benefit" from the business, it taxes it. So again, the state is not a partner in any real world way yet it legislates at whim to encroach on business decisions constantly. You are intentionally not addressing the argument of the state's compelling interest in forcing commerce, you are arguing for state compulsion and THEN assigning the state a role in the business.

To condense things; The state has no image investment in the business, the business does, the state takes no loss, the business does, the state takes no risk, the business does. But at the end of your theory the state has no interest in the business except taxation, yet somehow magically the businesses decisions reflect on the state? Again, how do you come to that conclusion when it is patently obvious that the state is a hinderance at best and a nuisance at worst? It has been explained already that bigotry isn't tolerable, and that as a society we would shut the business down using market factors, AND that bigotry is a provable failure in business.......yet you still defer to government authority, you should then have some proof of compelling interest past "it's the right thing to do", or "because we can't accept........." the onus is on you to prove why private property rights(and these do include private business) are trumped by government authority.