View Poll Results: Should B&B owners be allowed to refuse gay couples?

Voters
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  • Yes, they should be allowed to refuse anyone for any reason

    65 59.63%
  • The should be allowed to refuse if it violates their religious beliefs

    3 2.75%
  • They should be fined for discriminating against gays

    16 14.68%
  • They should lose their B&B license for discriminating against gays

    19 17.43%
  • Other, please explain

    6 5.50%
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Thread: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous grounds

  1. #311
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Of course that's true. It just depends on whom you place the burden of change; the person doing the discriminating or the person being discriminated against. You seem more concerned about the 'rights' of the discriminator than those of the discriminated.
    No, I'm more concerned about the personal property rights of a business owner, regardless of whether or not they're pricks.

    That sounded like a rather nervous ROFL. I think you know that inaction in the face of manifest injustice IS complicity and that you are, therefore, complicit.
    Whatever you want to believe, dear.

    If we were merely discussing the exchange of opinions between people then you might have a point. We are, however, discussing actions of one party against the interests of another. That's something beyond disagreement. The actions of the owners caused harm and damaged, to put it in US constitutional terms, the gay couple's "liberty and pursuit of happiness".
    Hurting someone's feelings isn't causing harm or damage.

    Then what commitment do you have to abide by the laws of the land? Should everyone be free to behave in whatever manner their own conscience (or lack of such) sees fit? What role do you see the law playing in your society?
    What commitment? I don't commit anything to the government. I break the laws I disagree with if I want to. And try to change them. Should people be able to do what they want? Pretty much. As long as they're not causing physical harm to one another, stealing other's property, etc.

    Hurting someone's feelings doesn't count as 'harm'.


    I think that is a narrow and insincere definition of justice. As with terms such as conservative, religion, law and liberal, justice may be written with a big or a small j and claiming otherwise is avoiding the matter.
    I said that's how I see it. And it is.

    Do you think I am not reading your posts? You said, (Post 305) "I consider it unfair to force a business owner to serve someone they don't want to serve." If you are now claiming that you meant to say "not RIGHT" then please define the difference between "unfair" (Post 305) and "not RIGHT" (Post 309).
    Holy ****, seriously? I was using the word YOU used as an example of how ****ing stupid it was. You wanted to use "unfair" or "unjust" so I applied it the same way you did but with MY argument.

    They don't lose any property rights (however you might define those) by so doing, they just accept new social responsibilities by doing so.
    Yes, they do. They lose the right to remove anyone they want from their property for any reason they want.

    The owners had every 'right' to discriminate against gays by not inviting them into their private home. By opening a business they converted their 'private' home into a 'public' business and had to accept the change in status and responsibilities that such a decision brought.
    And I disagree that they should lose rights when they open a business. I disagree with forcing a person to serve someone they don't want to serve. No one has a right to be served by someone else.
    Last edited by rivrrat; 03-31-10 at 11:13 PM.

  2. #312
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    No, I'm more concerned about the personal property rights of a business owner, regardless of whether or not they're pricks...
    This has been an interesting debate. I think I understand where you are coming from pretty well, and the kind of society you'd like to create, even if it isn't somewhere I'd care to spend much time.

    Obviously, we don't agree on anything very much, nevertheless I'm glad to have had the exchange.

    Thanks for taking the time to debate with me and good luck to you!

    Andalublue
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  3. #313
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    The votes in this poll show a very republicanazi stance on wanton discrimination.

    Discrimination is wrong. You are NOT allowed to do it. Accept this fact and move on.

  4. #314
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The votes in this poll show a very republicanazi stance on wanton discrimination.

    Discrimination is wrong. You are NOT allowed to do it. Accept this fact and move on.
    What do you expect? This is DP, the FoxNews of debate forums.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  5. #315
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The votes in this poll show a very republicanazi stance on wanton discrimination.

    Discrimination is wrong. You are NOT allowed to do it. Accept this fact and move on.
    really?

    so if you are a hot chick it is wrong to turn down the advances of some fat drunken slob who tries to pick you up at a bar--that is discrimination

    is it wrong for Yale or Amherst to turn down applicants with a 2.0 average and bottom 25% SAT scores? that is discrimination


    is it wrong for Coach K to offer Duke basketball scholarships to only HS all-Americans or "blue chip" rated recruits rather than slow short guys who cannot dribble?

    we discriminate all the time and the government should not be in a position of forcing someone to serve someone else

    it might be wrong, it might be stupid, it might even be bigoted but it should not be illegal



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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    really?

    so if you are a hot chick it is wrong to turn down the advances of some fat drunken slob who tries to pick you up at a bar--that is discrimination
    this is personal choice and he should not be making advances anyway. There is nothing in our laws to stop a person doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post

    is it wrong for Yale or Amherst to turn down applicants with a 2.0 average and bottom 25% SAT scores? that is discrimination


    is it wrong for Coach K to offer Duke basketball scholarships to only HS all-Americans or "blue chip" rated recruits rather than slow short guys who cannot dribble?
    Clearly this is to do with selection of the best and nothing to do with discrimination against. There is nothing in our laws to stop this.


    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post

    we discriminate all the time and the government should not be in a position of forcing someone to serve someone else

    it might be wrong, it might be stupid, it might even be bigoted but it should
    not be illegal
    speak for yourself.

    These laws concerning businesses are about discrimination against something which is part of the person. Not some drunken state the person is in or whether the person has some kind of ability.

    It is discrimination on grounds of race, religion or sexual orientation.

    These b & b owners could get over this as I have already said by opening a Christian only B & B.

    They almost certainly could have got away with anyway if they had just said they were full up but they had to add insult and that is what got them arrested.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  7. #317
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    You seem to think you can disprove an opinion with an opinion

    I don't think the federal government properly has the power to tell someone who owns a business whom they have to serve

    That I oppose such laws is not the same as saying I support gay bashing or racism. However, I do not believe the government properly has the power to tell someone they have to serve gays or blacks or whites or fat people or thin people or bikers etc. if a business makes stupid decisions based on bigotry, the market is going to give the business a rather painful lesson.

    For example, if you don't serve gays in San Francisco or gun owners in Butte Montana chances are you are going to go out of business



  8. #318
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    really?
    I see you are going out of your way to reach for something of any substance. Regardless, ill correct your failure to employ logic

    so if you are a hot chick it is wrong to turn down the advances of some fat drunken slob who tries to pick you up at a bar--that is discrimination
    Discrimination in this regard pertains to business discrimination. A personal relationship does not (and should not) in no way compare to discussion at hand (your failed leap in logic), so to respond in any fashion other than is pointless.

    However, if she is a prostitute, given the premise behind "business", she has all the right to deny a grotesque "heckler" if her being seen with him will negatively effect her status and demand from future clients. However, if the "client" tells her up front he'll pay double triple whatever, she can then make a rational cost benefit analysis. Her refusal of service out of "bigotry" counteracts the very reason she began selling her body in the first place (money! not the act of sexing a certain characteristic of guys unless it pertains to max profits).

    is it wrong for Yale or Amherst to turn down applicants with a 2.0 average and bottom 25% SAT scores? that is discrimination
    Nope. It is simple economics. Given that Yale will have more applicants with 4.0 GPA than they can admit in a given year, not allowing middle of the road students is a matter of quality assurance. Remember, you pay not for the quality of education (that is all on the student) but instead who you sit next to in lecture. Why would families want to pay 50k/yr to have their son or daughter sit next to a bunch of 2.0's with low study skills/desire to learn?

    is it wrong for Coach K to offer Duke basketball scholarships to only HS all-Americans or "blue chip" rated recruits rather than slow short guys who cannot dribble?
    Nope. But you fail on a (consistent basis) to consider the motivation behind opening up a top university, or a top notch basketball program. They do so to be of top quality, in which they can rightfully charge (Coach K is not cheep) the cost of attendance to be able to employ a top notch coach who can deliver on the promise to be great.

    we discriminate all the time and the government should not be in a position of forcing someone to serve someone else
    Again, another failure in logic. People discriminate on the basis of utility/profit maximization and doing so is not only legal, but ethically just. When you open your doors to the public in an attempt to pull profit, unless that person/group is negatively effecting your motive (profit), it only makes sense to serve them.

    It is quite legal and just to discriminate (if you are a profit orientated firm) on the basis of money. Why? That is why you went into business in the first place.

    it might be wrong, it might be stupid, it might even be bigoted but it should not be illegal
    And that is where you are wrong. Until you and the others can present an argument that "not being allowed to be a bigoted firm" effects the said firms bottom line (you know, the reason they started the business), you will only be playing the "me me me, i want what i want" card. None the less, it is a lousy card to play.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  9. #319
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    you seem confused and determined to engage in sophistry

    if you are a libertarian you need to check out your philosophy

    it is my opinion that the federal government only has the PROPER powers delegated to it to the constitution

    I am at loss to find where the power to force a bed and breakfast to serve gays was delegated to the government

    it also is MY OPINION that the sanctity of the right to contract or to control your own personal property TRUMPS laws that impose the contrary on people

    let us see if your supposed logic is strong enough to refute that



  10. #320
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    Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you seem confused and determined to engage in sophistry

    if you are a libertarian you need to check out your philosophy

    it is my opinion that the federal government only has the PROPER powers delegated to it to the constitution

    I am at loss to find where the power to force a bed and breakfast to serve gays was delegated to the government

    it also is MY OPINION that the sanctity of the right to contract or to control your own personal property TRUMPS laws that impose the contrary on people

    let us see if your supposed logic is strong enough to refute that
    That is because not everyone on the board is from the US and the incident itself happened in the UK where there are such laws to stop people from acting out their prejudices.

    It works just fine apart from for the odd bigot who gets caught.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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