View Poll Results: Is the Pledge Unconstitutional?

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Thread: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    it says one nation under god, for religious people, thats great, for atheists, it should be no different than if it went one nation under branded gelatine dessert, its a non issue, no matter what your religious stance
    Last edited by spud_meister; 03-24-10 at 06:03 AM.
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's like saying we're a nation of white people or male people. Just because a group happens to be in the majority doesn't give them extraordinary power.
    The "pledge" gives no group religious or otherwise any power at all. It is NOT a law. It is nothing more than a reflection of our society, nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And the numbers are higher than 7%, the most up-to-date polls place it closer to 15% with more and more people rejecting religion all the time. Non-religion is the fastest growing "religion" in America.
    Actually your number is way off. The actual number is 14.1% claiming "no religion." This dies not make someone an atheist. It just means they have no religious affiliation.

    About 7% to 10% are actual atheists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  3. #13
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    I think the pledge is perfectly fine and constitutional. Saying "under God" does violate church and state. No church is controlling the government or has power by saying this. Acknowledging God is not a violation of church and state. Our founding fathers were religious and separation of church and state was implemented to prevent government repression of religious freedom and having a theocracy. It wasn't intended to silence all talk of God and religion. the Declaration of Independence specifically references our Creator, and bases our rights as things given to us by Him.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    If saying "under God" in the pledge is unconstitutional, than so are our rights outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the document itself.

  4. #14
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    I agree. I think folks have way too much time on their hands if this bothers them over all the other real issues we could be bothered by. "Under God" in the pledge doesn't mandate that anyone has to believe a certain way. Its not a Government mandate that we have to believe a certain way or be part of a certain religion, and therefore I believe doesn't violate church and state laws.

  5. #15
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    The pledge itself? Of course it's not unconstitutional. However, forcing people to recite it, IS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    I disagree.

    "God" does not suggest any specific religion. I believe in a God but I am not religious.

    And if you're atheist I'd think "God" would just be another word... get over it.

    Personally I don't care much for the pledge. My allegiance is more to the advance of the human race as a whole.
    "god" may not point to a specific religion per se but it does specifically EXCLUDE several.

  6. #16
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    If saying "under God" in the pledge is unconstitutional, than so are our rights outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the document itself.
    A few points to make on the DoI argument:

    1. The DoI came before the constitution, so it wouldn't be subject to the rules expressed in the Constitution.

    2. One of the main goals of the DoI was to get some potentially sympathetic Brits to side with the American plight as well as convince people at home that the push for independence was a just one. That's one of the reasons it follows the format of a traditional argument. A well constructed argument should use specifically chosen language to elicit reactions from their readers. The idea that these rights are endowed by a person's creator was a well chosen turn of phrase because it doesn't exclude anyone (including atheists, because the term is especially ambiguous because one can argue that their "Creator" was their parents, or Nature, or a wandering llama with a bad case of mange. Simply using the term "creator" does not necessarily mean that there was a sentient entity involved in the creation process.

    3. The term "Nature's God" is used in the very first sentence of the DoI. This is teh only actual instance of the word "God" appearing in the DoI, and the inclusion of that term "Nature's" makes it far more ambiguous than what is found in "Under God". Perhaps the founders were actually wiccans.



    Anyway, I wonder if "In Nature's God we trust" or "One Nation, Under Nature's God" would fly over well with many of the proponents of these terms.

    Personally, I like the added historical relevance contained within this slight alteration.
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  7. #17
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Anyway, I wonder if "In Nature's God we trust" or "One Nation, Under Nature's God" would fly over well with many of the proponents of these terms.

    Personally, I like the added historical relevance contained within this slight alteration.
    I like you, don't mind the historical connotation.

    It's to bad many would have a problem with the term "natures God" as they think this is a Christian nation when in fact we are not. We are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  8. #18
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    By itself, no, of course not, any more than a prayer is unconstitutional.

    The only thing that would be unconstitutional would be forcing people to say it.

  9. #19
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I like you, don't mind the historical connotation.

    It's to bad many would have a problem with the term "natures God" as they think this is a Christian nation when in fact we are not. We are a secular nation that is predominantly Christian.
    Agreed.

    And like I said, though, I don't actually mind the "Under God" all that much (even though I am an agnostic atheist). It doesn't violate the first by establishing a state religion, IMO. Granted, I can see the argument about it being somewhat exclusionary of certain religions, but I don't think it's that big of a deal in general. As far as the money goes, I really don't care what's written on it as long as I can still use it.
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  10. #20
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    Re: Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The "pledge" gives no group religious or otherwise any power at all. It is NOT a law. It is nothing more than a reflection of our society, nothing more.
    No, it's a reflection of the McCarthy era in the 1950s when it was inserted into the pledge. It does not reflect modern-day society at all, nor is it a historical remnant. The original pledge had no reference to God at all.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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