View Poll Results: What do you think about the health care legislation that just got passed?

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  • Perfectly fine

    1 1.72%
  • Too Liberal

    5 8.62%
  • Not Liberal enough

    20 34.48%
  • Not good at all

    32 55.17%
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Thread: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

  1. #21
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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The point you are missing is that the proposals for it were legally barred from subsidizing insurance for anyone other than the poor.
    The problem isn't subsidizing the poor, it's offering coverage to the average person. The stated objective was to create competition for the private market which means they will be offerring a lower rate backed by the purse of the government. Private insurance can't compete with that.

    Government should never offer a service to compete with the private sector; it will shift the price so the private sector cannot compete. Socialism.

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pal View Post
    So if the government can do better than the private sector in this area, why not have a public option? Don't you want people to have better health coverage? I don't believe leaving millions without coverage or with poor coverage simply for the sake of the market and the private sector.

    Also, people who can afford it will always choose private insurance, that's what happens in other countries with public health care.
    I don't believe that either, but having a public option that competes with the private sector is not the way to go.

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    I meant to vote "Not good at all". D'oh

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    I consider it virtually identitical to the plan proposed by Bob Dole in 1994. I'm a huge fan of Bob Dole, but then, who isn't? He's a real conservative.

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    Gotta ask Catz, what blog did you get that suddenly realization out of. You're the third person in the past day that has used essentially the exact same phrase and argument, which I hadn't heard ONCE in the months leading up to this.

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    Bob Dole outs naysayer Mitch McConnell | Midwest Voices

    Jonathan Chait reminded me of it again, yesterday, though.

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Bob Dole outs naysayer Mitch McConnell | Midwest Voices

    Jonathan Chait reminded me of it again, yesterday, though.
    Thanks. Do you have any link to a copy of his plan from 1994? I've tried searching and all I keep finding is links talking about how he was working to stop Clinton's health care overhaul, and nothing about his own measures.

    It'd be interesting to read it and see if it actually is nearly identical or if its something that's been propogated by word of mouth without people actually checking to see if its valid.

    -edit- Found a comparison chart, but no copy of the actual proposal. The comparison chart is just "yes" and "no's" with little actual nuance which makes it VERY difficult for me to say something is "nearly identical" since, as they say, the devil is often in the details. Looking at it now.

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    Okay, looking at that I have a few issues.

    First, it says the 1994 plan requires employers to offer insurance, but doens't require them to pay the premium cost, which then makes me wonder how it works at all. is it simply that they make agreements with insurance companies to directly remove funds from employee's pay checks if they want health insurance but the business doesn't actually contribute any? This looks entirely different than the mandate in Obama's plan.

    Second, it says everyone is required to purchase health insurance however gives no indication of how. Under penalty of fine, increased taxes, jail, level of coverage, etc?

    The "Makes efforts for a more efficient health care system" is so nebulous that god knows what they include in that to compare all three bills.

    The Obama plan penalizes anyone with a "cadillac plan", where as the 1994 one only did it for employee sponsored ones, not individual purhcased one. Additionally the chart failed to state what the price cap was on the 1994 one, leading the comparison greatly lacking.

    I see nothing in the bill concerning having the government be the one whose panel oversees the type of treatment you can particularly get nor removing the ability to appeal the decision. I see nothing in the chart suggesting the 1994 bill had the government unfetted access to your bank account. I see nothing about the government subsidizing union and community activist group plans. I see nothing about having to go under the government plan if you lose coverage and there's not a comparable plan available.

    In the 1994 bill I do see tort reform and I see things to ease the strain on self-insured small business owners.

    To me they look similar, but far from identical, and far from something I could make such a claim of based on a chart by a third party whose word we have to take as gospel that somehow a "yes" under both makes them exactly the same.

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Okay, looking at that I have a few issues.

    First, it says the 1994 plan requires employers to offer insurance, but doens't require them to pay the premium cost, which then makes me wonder how it works at all. is it simply that they make agreements with insurance companies to directly remove funds from employee's pay checks if they want health insurance but the business doesn't actually contribute any? This looks entirely different than the mandate in Obama's plan.

    Second, it says everyone is required to purchase health insurance however gives no indication of how. Under penalty of fine, increased taxes, jail, level of coverage, etc?

    The "Makes efforts for a more efficient health care system" is so nebulous that god knows what they include in that to compare all three bills.

    The Obama plan penalizes anyone with a "cadillac plan", where as the 1994 one only did it for employee sponsored ones, not individual purhcased one. Additionally the chart failed to state what the price cap was on the 1994 one, leading the comparison greatly lacking.

    I see nothing in the bill concerning having the government be the one whose panel oversees the type of treatment you can particularly get nor removing the ability to appeal the decision. I see nothing in the chart suggesting the 1994 bill had the government unfetted access to your bank account. I see nothing about the government subsidizing union and community activist group plans. I see nothing about having to go under the government plan if you lose coverage and there's not a comparable plan available.

    In the 1994 bill I do see tort reform and I see things to ease the strain on self-insured small business owners.

    To me they look similar, but far from identical, and far from something I could make such a claim of based on a chart by a third party whose word we have to take as gospel that somehow a "yes" under both makes them exactly the same.
    I don't think anyone can rationally imply that the Obama plan is "more liberal" than what Dole proposed.

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    Re: What do you think about the health care bill that just passed?

    ...so, was there a specific point I made about what was present in one or the other based on what little I could find that you disagreed with or?....

    "I don't see how any person could rationally imply that those two plans are identical"

    See, I can make one liners as well that doesn't actually support anything I say.

    I'll ask again, have you actually seen anything of the 1994 proposal or just seen one comparison chart linked off of a liberal blog site that has completely unnuanced language in comparing the two?

    If you just wanted to go for a technical thing, the very fact that the 1994 bill had tort reform in it would make it more conservative then the current one, which alone makes your one liner invalid.

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