View Poll Results: Do you think the Bill will be FOUND Constitutional?

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    29 55.77%
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    15 28.85%
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Thread: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

  1. #21
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    I think states lack standing in challenging the constitutionality of the legislation because they are not themselves directly impacted by its provisions.
    It's unsettled as to whether the states can sue parens patriae on behalf of their citizens, but even if they couldn't, they're absolutely entitled to sue where the federal law conflicts with their own.

    Of course those states that are attempting to nullify the federal law with their own legislation will experience a sudden, violent collision with the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution and that will be the end of that.
    But the Supremacy clause doesn't apply if the law is unconstitutional, which is the entire point of the suit.

    So, all that's left is individuals who don't want to buy insurance: basically the free loaders. I guess I don't feel much sympathy for them.
    So now the uninsured are freeloaders? How quickly the democratic message changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    If it were to be found unconstitutional (and I can't imagine how) it would mean that just about every other similar bill would be found so as well, throwing our entire system of government into upheaval.
    I keep on hearing people say this, but it just doesn't make sense to me. What makes you think that a decision rendering this program unconstitutional would automatically overturn everything (or anything) else? I'm not saying that it means the result will be different, but this is pretty clearly distinguishable from Social Security or Medicare.

    I still haven't heard a real argument as to why this bill, among all, is unconstitutional. Many opponents just seem to think that since they don't like it, it must be.
    I posted the position of two of the lawyers challenging this topic right above here. Here are a few other discussions of the topic:

    http://volokh.com/2010/03/22/is-the-tax-power-infinite/

    washingtonpost.com

    http://volokh.com/2010/03/23/what-wi...idual-mandate/

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    For those of us(well, at least me) who are ignorant of court speak, can you rephrase that a bit?
    What groucho said. Also, even the lower courts have a whole bunch of tools at their disposal that they can use to avoid rendering important issues unless they absolutely have to. I wouldn't be surprised to see those used here.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  2. #22
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill


  3. #23
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Let me know when the DoJ files for Rule 11 sanctions.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Let me know when the DoJ files for Rule 11 sanctions.
    Ooh, whipping out the FRCP! Nice ...

  5. #25
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    I wonder how the Federal Government can cite the Interstate Commerce Clause as justification for their health care legislation when insurance can not be sold interstate....... seems like the commerce clause would be moot.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

  6. #26
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    The lawsuits may be deemed moot, because the law allows states to put in their own health care bills so long as they meet minimal standards:

    Wyden: Health Care Lawsuits Moot, States Can Opt Out Of Mandate

  7. #27
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    The lawsuits may be deemed moot, because the law allows states to put in their own health care bills so long as they meet minimal standards:

    Wyden: Health Care Lawsuits Moot, States Can Opt Out Of Mandate
    So his theory is that so long as individual states create a system whereby everyone has coverage, they can avoid the individual mandate? How does he think that works? If the "minimum standards" that the bill requires are that everyone have coverage, then that would in effect require that any state system also provide universal coverage in some form. I very much doubt that any judge will find that that passes the smell test.

    It's like passing a law that mandates that everyone go out and buy a bible, but saying that it's not a mandate because states can opt out by passing laws that tax everyone to provide them with a free bible.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 03-24-10 at 05:45 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So his theory is that so long as individual states create a system whereby everyone has coverage, they can avoid the individual mandate? How does he think that works? If the "minimum standards" that the bill requires are that everyone have coverage, then that would in effect require that any state system also provide universal coverage in some form. I very much doubt that any judge will find that that passes the smell test.
    It's the "you have to buy private insurance" that is apparently the problem they are complaining about.

    A state could implement its own single payer system and get past this, for instance. Thus, the lawsuit would be moot. It doesn't matter whether the state wants to do so, if they can then it's not a mandate as they see it.

    (Mind you, I personally don't think the lawsuit has any grounds anyway.)

  9. #29
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    It's the "you have to buy private insurance" that is apparently the problem they are complaining about.

    A state could implement its own single payer system and get past this, for instance. Thus, the lawsuit would be moot. It doesn't matter whether the state wants to do so, if they can then it's not a mandate as they see it.
    I understand his theory, I just doubt anyone will buy it. You can't take something that's unconstitutional and make it constitutional by allowing people to opt-out so long as they choose to do something else onerous that you require.

    "Every newspaper must get prior approval before publishing anything critical of the government. However, papers can avoid this provision if they choose to publish a smiling picture of the president on the front page every day and to offer the government a section to respond to everything they claim."


    (Mind you, I personally don't think the lawsuit has any grounds anyway.)
    I don't think they'll win, but that's different from saying it's frivolous.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  10. #30
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    Re: Constitutionality of the Health Care Bill

    Get enough States together and they can change the Constitution (Amendment) to outlaw Federal Mandated Health Insurance.


    Article V - Amendment Note1 - Note2 - Note3
    The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
    The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

    Oops.......... 38 states are already changing their laws to make this POS illegal.


    The governor of Idaho signed a bill last week blocking federal mandates requiring individuals in his state to purchase health insurance.

    Some 38 states have either filed or announced their intention to file similar legislation, according to the American Legislative Exchange Council, which opposes the health reform bill.
    Ten US states to file suit against health care reform - Yahoo! News

    So lets do the Math!!!!!!!!

    2/3rd's of 50 States looks to me to be 33 and a third States....... that's less than 38!

    3/4's of 50 States looks like 37 and a half States...... that's also less than 38 States.

    Any one here still think the States will be defeated in their bid to out law this POS?
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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