Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

Ikari said:

It certainly does for the context of the hypothetical for this thread and is even more generalized elsewhere. Since one one of the given reasons for abortion was that the child's life will be less than perfect and thus is equivalent to death anyway.

Click to expand...

Again I don't think you are understanding my position. I will restate it again and if you fail to understand there is probably little I can do to help you.

First of all, I am not saying that their life should be perfect since that is not achievable
.
What I am saying is that if society forces a mother to give birth to a child she is not prepared for than that society has acquired the responsibility to help and nurture that child due to its actions forced on the mother. If society does not help, it is helping to condemn that child to circumstances, beyond its control, that will serve to harm the child. If you fight for prohibition of abortion and do not help clean up the mess you created than you are evading your responsibility.

I personally do believe an unhappy life is worse than death. I have not proposed that I can make that decision for anyone, except me. This (to me) has nothing to do with the topic of unborn children because they are not yet completely alive. Because people and fetuses are not the same thing. I do not believe that this side track we went on really matters. You can call my terminology (fetus) dehumanizing all you want. However, I have seen ultrasound pictures of my own children, I have seen many photos of unborn babies in all stages of development and I still do not feel that they are completely alive when I look the whole picture. So this little side thing we went on is completely off track and has nothing to do with the real discussion at hand. My mistake and where I let this go to a tangent is that I got distracted by your hypothetical.

For me this is two completely different subjects and you seem to want to mingle them when they should not be. If you want to talk about unborn babies, we will go with the first paragraph. If you want to talk about people, we will go with the second, however I will completely change my argument because child does have a right to life once it is born.

However, I must thank you. I have learned something through this post. That is if I accept any my debate partner's assumptions that I disagree, I can easily lose control of where I am going and off on some tangent that has little to do with the original topic. After reviewing our posts, I have realized this and I thank you for helping me be a better poster.

The Mark said:

I can't really pick one of the poll options, so I chose "Other"

And here are a few thoughts on the matter.

Rape, IMO, is one of the worst possible criminal acts yet conceived by humans.

In my mental list of "worst criminal acts", it ranks above murder and below child molestation.
My reasoning is that at least an adult female has had more mental development, and may potentially handle such horrors better than a child. At least, a higher percentage might.

Click to expand...

That's nuts.
You'd rather your kid be murdered than molested?
You'd rather be murdered yourself, than raped?

There are plenty of rape and molestation survivors on this very forum.
I'm glad they weren't murdered.
I don't think either one of those things are worse than murder, because we still get to have those people here with us. Their lives still have as much value as they ever did.
Saying that rape and molestation are worse than murder makes it seem like you think it would have been better if these survivors been murdered.

How can you think that murder is better?

1069 said:

That's nuts.
You'd rather your kid be murdered than molested?
You'd rather be murdered yourself, than raped?

There are plenty of rape and molestation survivors on this very forum.
I'm glad they weren't murdered.
I don't think either one of those things are worse than murder, because we still get to have those people here with us. Their lives still have as much value as they ever did.
Saying that rape and molestation are worse than murder makes it seem like you think it would have been better if these survivors were murdered.

How can you think that murder is better?

Click to expand...

I don't think murder is "better" than rape or molestation.

Although I can see how you might think so.

I look at it in the following manner:

A raped/molested child may have psychological issues for the remainder of their life, and at the least, will always remember the occurrence.
A raped/molested adult may have psychological issues for the remainder of their life, and at the least, will always remember the occurrence.
A murdered person is, obviously dead, and thus (depending on your spiritual beliefs) no longer capable of having any psychological issues.

While neither situation is acceptable in any way, I consider the long-term lingering harm to a child or an adult to be worse than murder in some cases.

Suffering, in other terms.

Some persons, obviously, are more able than others to cope with such issues.
Some persons, obviously, may receive proper psychological care after an incident of this sort, and some may not.

These factors lead me to believe that depending on the individual situation, in some cases the person’s suffering due to the rape/molestation incident would be greater than if they had been murdered.

In other words, I find all terrible and unacceptable, but in some cases it might be less terrible for someone to die than live (from their perspective).

You probably disagree with me.

As to your questions:

1069 said:

You'd rather your kid be murdered than molested?

Click to expand...

I would rather neither. Even though I don’t have a kid, do you honestly expect me, or any person, to be capable of choosing one or the other? I would probably be incapable of choosing.

1069 said:

You'd rather be murdered yourself, than raped?

Click to expand...

Again, I would rather neither, but…
I would probably go for the latter, because depending on the situation I would probably consider myself potentially capable of mental recovery from the incident.

Chuz Life said:

This is what I am talking about;

Implied Consent; "Implied consent is a form of consent which is not expressly granted by a person, but rather inferred from a person's actions and the facts and circumstances of a particular situation (or in some cases, by a person's silence or inaction). "

Click to expand...

You did not address my point at all. You have not taken into consideration the psychological effects of the rape. It is the woman's right, based on this trauma, when she reports or not reports it. The rape happened to her. Implied consent does not apply here because of the context of the rape and the woman's psychological state... or, if it does, her psychological state mitigates that consent.

I would rather neither. Even though I don’t have a kid, do you honestly expect me, or any person, to be capable of choosing one or the other? I would probably be incapable of choosing.

Click to expand...

Yes, I do.
Any parent in their right mind, forced to choose, would choose their child's life.
WTF, are you mad?

Don't say you'd be "incapable of choosing"; you're not even a parent, i'm sure the hypothetical idea doesn't traumatize you to the point that you can't answer the question.
You- and nobody but you- are the one who set up this "hierarchy" of crime: in your model, murder is the least of the three evils, rape is worse, and child molestation is the worst of all. You posted this yourself; I quoted you directly.

There is a member who doesn't post much here anymore. Her child- now grown- was, years ago, molested by her former husband.
Do you think she'd rather her grown daughter was dead? Murdered?
Do you think she really needs to sit down and contemplate that?
Do you think she'd say, "I can't possibly decide if it would be better if my daughter had been murdered instead of molested; how do you expect me to make such a choice?"

I don't know if there are any parents on here who have lost a son or daughter. If there are, do you think they'd prefer to have their child alive again, even if he or she had been molested?
Don't you think they'd wish their child back to life in any condition, if they had that option?
Do you think, given the option, they'd say, "How do you expect us to choose??"

Any parent would prefer to have their child alive, even if psychologically traumatized; the end.

And as I said, there are many rape survivors here on the forum. Not "victims".
Survivors.
Because they are powerful people who lead meaningful lives.
And no, they do not believe- nor does anyone else- that it would've been better if they'd been murdered; I'm sure that the hypothetical question is not too perplexing for them to contemplate.

CaptainCourtesy said:

You did not address my point at all. You have not taken into consideration the psychological effects of the rape. It is the woman's right, based on this trauma, when she reports or not reports it. The rape happened to her. Implied consent does not apply here because of the context of the rape and the woman's psychological state... or, if it does, her psychological state mitigates that consent.

Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying.

Do you understand the reality that the longer she waits,... the greater the likelyhood that the authorities (when she finally does report it) will be weighing her claims against 'implied consent?'

1069 said:

Yes, I do.
Any parent in their right mind, forced to choose, would choose their child's life.
WTF, are you mad?

Don't say you'd be "incapable of choosing"; you're not even a parent, I’m sure the hypothetical idea doesn't traumatize you to the point that you can't answer the question.
You- and nobody but you- are the one who set up this "hierarchy" of crime: in your model, murder is the least of the three evils, rape is worse, and child molestation is the worst of all. You posted this yourself; I quoted you directly.

There is a member who doesn't post much here anymore. Her child- now grown- was, years ago, molested by her former husband.
Do you think she'd rather her grown daughter was dead? Murdered?
Do you think she really needs to sit down and contemplate that?
Do you think she'd say, "I can't possibly decide if it would be better if my daughter had been murdered instead of molested; how do you expect me to make such a choice?"

I don't know if there are any parents on here who have lost a son or daughter. If there are, do you think they'd prefer to have their child alive again, even if he or she had been molested?
Don't you think they'd wish their child back to life in any condition, if they had that option?
Do you think, given the option, they'd say, "How do you expect us to choose??"

Any parent would prefer to have their child alive, even if psychologically traumatized; the end.

And as I said, there are many rape survivors here on the forum. Not "victims".
Survivors.
Because they are powerful people who lead meaningful lives.
And no, they do not believe- nor does anyone else- that it would've been better if they'd been murdered; I'm sure that the hypothetical question is not too perplexing for them to contemplate.

Click to expand...

I was not attempting to say that one or the other would be preferable. Simply that IMO, in terms of the prolonged pain/suffering caused to the subject of such, murder is the least of the three.

After further thought, if forced to choose between them, through some means, obviously I would not choose murder. I would hold out hope that I could help them through the mental trauma resulting from the rape. So you are correct.

As to your comments regarding “victims” vs. “survivors”, are you willing to state that no instance of molestation/rape has ever resulted in mental harm to the person who was subjected to such, to a degree which results in their undergoing more suffering than if they had simply been murdered? I never stated that this hypothetical was a catchall for such situations; I simply said that in some cases it may be…the case.

In reference to my mental “hierarchy” of crimes, I thought I had stated that I based this on the “suffering” that the targets of said crimes undergo.
It is impossible to deny that all three are heinous, but murder, if it has any good points, at the least does not result in prolonged suffering, whether mental or physical.
The other two do.

It’s sort of like trying to quantify infinity.

All three crimes I placed into my “hierarchy” are infinitely heinous, terrible, horrible, etc.
So placing one above or below the other in a list holds no real meaning as to my preference for which one I would suggest a family member suffer.

I actually first came up with that “hierarchy” in a discussion regarding punishment for child molesters.

The Mark said:

I was not attempting to say that one or the other would be preferable. Simply that IMO, in terms of the prolonged pain/suffering caused to the subject of such, murder is the least of the three.

After further thought, if forced to choose between them, through some means, obviously I would not choose murder. I would hold out hope that I could help them through the mental trauma resulting from the rape. So you are correct.

As to your comments regarding “victims” vs. “survivors”, are you willing to state that no instance of molestation/rape has ever resulted in mental harm to the person who was subjected to such, to a degree which results in their undergoing more suffering than if they had simply been murdered? I never stated that this hypothetical was a catchall for such situations; I simply said that in some cases it may be…the case.

In reference to my mental “hierarchy” of crimes, I thought I had stated that I based this on the “suffering” that the targets of said crimes undergo.
It is impossible to deny that all three are heinous, but murder, if it has any good points, at the least does not result in prolonged suffering, whether mental or physical.
The other two do.

It’s sort of like trying to quantify infinity.

All three crimes I placed into my “hierarchy” are infinitely heinous, terrible, horrible, etc.
So placing one above or below the other in a list holds no real meaning as to my preference for which one I would suggest a family member suffer.

I actually first came up with that “hierarchy” in a discussion regarding punishment for child molesters.

Click to expand...

I'm sure you have a mom.
All you have to ask yourself is, would you rather your mom was raped tomorrow, or murdered?
Would you rather your mom had been molested as a child, or murdered?

I mean, clearly, being murdered is worse than being forced to have sex against one's will.
If you believe the statistics, practically half the dang world's been molested and/or raped.
If they'd all been murdered, I can't see how that would be better. I can't see how it wouldn't be worse.

Oh well. Pardon the digression. Back to topic.

1069 said:

I'm sure you have a mom.
All you have to ask yourself is, would you rather your mom was raped tomorrow, or murdered?
Would you rather your mom had been molested as a child, or murdered?

I mean, clearly, being murdered is worse than being forced to have sex against one's will.
If you believe the statistics, practically half the dang world's been molested and/or raped.
If they'd all been murdered, I can't see how that would be better. I can't see how it wouldn't be worse.

Oh well. Pardon the digression. Back to topic.

Click to expand...

I addressed all of these points in the post you just quoted.

Or at least I thought I did.

Chuz Life said:

I understand what you are saying.

Do you understand the reality that the longer she waits,... the greater the likelyhood that the authorities (when she finally does report it) will be weighing her claims against 'implied consent?'

Click to expand...

I think it depends on specific circumstances. Since it is a well known fact that rape is a trauma and different folks deal with trauma differently, it would depend on the circumstances of the rape. Implied consent can be an issue in ANY rape. Psychological trauma can easily explain that away.

Obviously the people who are arguing that a woman who doesn't have an abortion right away after being rape is consenting to the rape do not know anybody who has been raped. Rape is one of the most under-reported of violent crimes. Not because victims consent to the rape but because victims are usually too scared of what the repercussions will be. Let us all remember one thing, when a woman is raped or sexually assaulted it is usually by somebody she has known at least casually. The entire premise that a woman consents to a rape because she doesn't call it in immediately is not supported by the facts.

Hatuey said:

Obviously the people who are arguing that a woman who doesn't have an abortion right away after being rape is consenting to the rape do not know anybody who has been raped. Rape is one of the most under-reported of violent crimes. Not because victims consent to the rape but because victims are usually too scared of what the repercussions will be. Let us all remember one thing, when a woman is raped or sexually assaulted it is usually by somebody she has known at least casually. The entire premise that a woman consents to a rape because she doesn't call it in immediately is not supported by the facts.

Click to expand...

Consenting to the rape?

/Epic Logic Fail

If a woman reports a rape immediately, she is treated immediately to prevent pregnancy, HIV and other STD's and evidence can be gathered for investigation,... We should encourage women to come forward as soon as possible.

And as far as my use of the term 'informed consent?' It's in reference towards having some level of intent to keep the child,... NOT a growing "consent" to the rape that occurred.

Chuz Life said:

Consenting to the rape?

/Epic Logic Fail

Click to expand...

Chuz Life said:

That said,... do you not agree that the longer the woman waits to report the rape (talking weeks not minutes here),... the more she 'consents' to the conditions of her pregnancy?

Click to expand...

Your own words betray you.

If a woman reports a rape immediately, she is treated immediately to prevent pregnancy, HIV and other STD's and evidence can be gathered for investigation,... We should encourage women to come forward as soon as possible.

Click to expand...

But they do not. Pick up a book on Victimology to find out why. Here's a good one:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Victimology-Applications-Ann-Wolbert-Bergess/dp/0763772100/ref=sr_1_2/176-7836137-9317329?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269404557&sr=1-2]Amazon.com: Victimology: Theories and Applications (9780763772109): Ann Wolbert Bergess, Cheryl Regehr, Albert Roberts: Books[/ame]

And as far as my use of the term 'informed consent?' It's in reference towards having some level of intent to keep the child,... NOT a growing "consent" to the rape that occurred.

Click to expand...

I have no interest in your word play tonight. A woman who has been raped does not consent to anything by waiting 2 weeks to get rid of a fetus instead of 20 minutes after the rape has occurred. Each victim is different, each rape is different. Cookie cutter theories for why a woman does what after she's been raped have been dismissed for the better part of the last 40-50 years.

Chuz Life said:

Consenting to the rape?

/Epic Logic Fail

If a woman reports a rape immediately, she is treated immediately to prevent pregnancy, HIV and other STD's and evidence can be gathered for investigation,... We should encourage women to come forward as soon as possible.

And as far as my use of the term 'informed consent?' It's in reference towards having some level of intent to keep the child,... NOT a growing "consent" to the rape that occurred.

Click to expand...

I'll say it again. Your informed consent position fails because it does not consider the psychological affects on the woman raped. It implies that it is an either/or situation. That is a false dichotomy and absolutely untrue. When a woman reports a rape, based on her emotional ability to handle the repercussions of doing so, has zero to do with the abortion of the fetus. These issues are mutually exclusive.

Hatuey said:

Your own words betray you.

Click to expand...

What???

Please explain how the rape (past tense, history) is a 'condition of ' her (present, current condition) pregnancy.

Hatuey said:

I have no interest in your word play tonight. A woman who has been raped does not consent to anything by waiting 2 weeks to get rid of a fetus instead of 20 minutes after the rape has occurred.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree "in general."

But you ignore the fact that the longer she waits,... the harder it is to make that the case.

Hatuey said:

Each victim is different, each rape is different. Cookie cutter theories for why a woman does what after she's been raped have been dismissed for the better part of the last 40-50 years.

Click to expand...

I never set a deadline.

I made the factual comment that the longer someone waits to report a crime, the more they become responsible for their current condition; the more they (imply) consent to their current condition.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I'll say it again. Your informed consent position fails because it does not consider the psychological affects on the woman raped. It implies that it is an either/or situation. That is a false dichotomy and absolutely untrue. When a woman reports a rape, based on her emotional ability to handle the repercussions of doing so, has zero to do with the abortion of the fetus. These issues are mutually exclusive.

Click to expand...

Do you have a problem with doing as much as possible (within reason) to encourage women to report their rapes sooner rather than later?

It seems like you do.

Chuz Life said:

Do you have a problem with doing as much as possible (within reason) to encourage women to report their rapes sooner rather than later?

It seems like you do.

Click to expand...

I would ask that you point out what portions of CaptainCourtesy's post led you to this conclusion?

The Mark said:

I would ask that you point out what portions of CaptainCourtesy's post led you to this conclusion?

Click to expand...

Well go ahead.

Chuz Life said:

Well go ahead.

Click to expand...

I ask that you point out what portions of CaptainCourtesy's post led you to this conclusion.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I'll say it again. Your informed consent position fails because it does not consider the psychological affects on the woman raped. It implies that it is an either/or situation. That is a false dichotomy and absolutely untrue. When a woman reports a rape, based on her emotional ability to handle the repercussions of doing so, has zero to do with the abortion of the fetus. These issues are mutually exclusive.

Click to expand...

Chuz Life said:

Do you have a problem with doing as much as possible (within reason) to encourage women to report their rapes sooner rather than later?

It seems like you do.

Click to expand...

The Mark said:

I would ask that you point out what portions of CaptainCourtesy's post led you to this conclusion?

Click to expand...

Well, for one he hasn't answered my question,.. so I can't really say he agrees with me.

So, (at this point) I would say "His reluctance to answer my question and say for himself that he agrees with me."

Not sure why that's important to you though.

Chuz Life said:

Do you have a problem with doing as much as possible (within reason) to encourage women to report their rapes sooner rather than later?

It seems like you do.

Click to expand...

I appreciate Mark's assistance, but I think I can handle this. Point out precisely where I said that. Use a quote box, so you can directly quote where I said that in one of my posts.

Chuz Life said:

Do you have a problem with doing as much as possible (within reason) to encourage women to report their rapes sooner rather than later?

It seems like you do.

Click to expand...

CaptainCourtesy said:

I appreciate Mark's assistance, but I think I can handle this. Point out precisely where I said that. Use a quote box, so you can directly quote where I said that in one of my posts.

Click to expand...

My use of the phrase 'it seems like' should have been an indications to you that it's a gut feeling,... one that I can't put my finger on.

As such, I asked a question for clarification instead of making a comment or drawing a conclusion.

Chuz Life said:

My use of the phrase 'it seems like' should have been an indications to you that it's a gut feeling,... one that I can't put my finger on.

As such, I asked a question for clarification instead of making a comment or drawing a conclusion.

Click to expand...

OK, then the answer to your question is a negative. Of course one would have to define what doing everything possible (within reason) would be. I wonder if our opinions on that would differ.

The Catholic Church is uncomfortable with their inability to adequately address a theological basis for "LIMBO"; and has put it in "LIMBO".


WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR 'ORIGINAL SIN'; BABY?


IT MEANS YOU can ABORT THAT DOWNES BABY-SARA-and write a book instead!!!


RAPE and abortion-WELL LESS THAN 1%-so NICE TRY-too. .


"THE DEVIL ALWAYS PERVERTS WHAT DECENT PEOPLE WOULD NORMALLY DO" IN A GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCE. . .

BOTTOMS UP said:

The Catholic Church is uncomfortable with their inability to adequately address a theological basis for "LIMBO"; and has put it in "LIMBO".


WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR 'ORIGINAL SIN'; BABY?


IT MEANS YOU can ABORT THAT DOWNES BABY-SARA-and write a book instead!!!


RAPE and abortion-WELL LESS THAN 1%-so NICE TRY-too. .


"THE DEVIL ALWAYS PERVERTS WHAT DECENT PEOPLE WOULD NORMALLY DO" IN A GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCE. . .

Click to expand...

Why are you yelling.