View Poll Results: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

Voters
46. You may not vote on this poll
  • No - Not under any circumstances ever

    5 10.87%
  • No - Not under the circumstances given (please explain)

    4 8.70%
  • Yes - If the law required the rape to be reported immediately

    11 23.91%
  • Yes - As long as the rape is reported in a timely manner

    14 30.43%
  • Other

    12 26.09%
Page 16 of 19 FirstFirst ... 61415161718 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 160 of 182

Thread: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

  1. #151
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 01:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It certainly does for the context of the hypothetical for this thread and is even more generalized elsewhere. Since one one of the given reasons for abortion was that the child's life will be less than perfect and thus is equivalent to death anyway.
    Again I don't think you are understanding my position. I will restate it again and if you fail to understand there is probably little I can do to help you.

    First of all, I am not saying that their life should be perfect since that is not achievable
    .
    What I am saying is that if society forces a mother to give birth to a child she is not prepared for than that society has acquired the responsibility to help and nurture that child due to its actions forced on the mother. If society does not help, it is helping to condemn that child to circumstances, beyond its control, that will serve to harm the child. If you fight for prohibition of abortion and do not help clean up the mess you created than you are evading your responsibility.

    I personally do believe an unhappy life is worse than death. I have not proposed that I can make that decision for anyone, except me. This (to me) has nothing to do with the topic of unborn children because they are not yet completely alive. Because people and fetuses are not the same thing. I do not believe that this side track we went on really matters. You can call my terminology (fetus) dehumanizing all you want. However, I have seen ultrasound pictures of my own children, I have seen many photos of unborn babies in all stages of development and I still do not feel that they are completely alive when I look the whole picture. So this little side thing we went on is completely off track and has nothing to do with the real discussion at hand. My mistake and where I let this go to a tangent is that I got distracted by your hypothetical.

    For me this is two completely different subjects and you seem to want to mingle them when they should not be. If you want to talk about unborn babies, we will go with the first paragraph. If you want to talk about people, we will go with the second, however I will completely change my argument because child does have a right to life once it is born.

    However, I must thank you. I have learned something through this post. That is if I accept any my debate partner's assumptions that I disagree, I can easily lose control of where I am going and off on some tangent that has little to do with the original topic. After reviewing our posts, I have realized this and I thank you for helping me be a better poster.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-23-10 at 01:59 PM.

  2. #152
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    10-26-10 @ 05:34 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,978

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I can't really pick one of the poll options, so I chose "Other"

    And here are a few thoughts on the matter.

    Rape, IMO, is one of the worst possible criminal acts yet conceived by humans.

    In my mental list of "worst criminal acts", it ranks above murder and below child molestation.
    My reasoning is that at least an adult female has had more mental development, and may potentially handle such horrors better than a child. At least, a higher percentage might.
    That's nuts.
    You'd rather your kid be murdered than molested?
    You'd rather be murdered yourself, than raped?

    There are plenty of rape and molestation survivors on this very forum.
    I'm glad they weren't murdered.
    I don't think either one of those things are worse than murder, because we still get to have those people here with us. Their lives still have as much value as they ever did.
    Saying that rape and molestation are worse than murder makes it seem like you think it would have been better if these survivors been murdered.

    How can you think that murder is better?
    Last edited by 1069; 03-23-10 at 06:48 PM.

  3. #153
    Sporadic insanity normal.

    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    20,953

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    That's nuts.
    You'd rather your kid be murdered than molested?
    You'd rather be murdered yourself, than raped?

    There are plenty of rape and molestation survivors on this very forum.
    I'm glad they weren't murdered.
    I don't think either one of those things are worse than murder, because we still get to have those people here with us. Their lives still have as much value as they ever did.
    Saying that rape and molestation are worse than murder makes it seem like you think it would have been better if these survivors were murdered.

    How can you think that murder is better?
    I don't think murder is "better" than rape or molestation.

    Although I can see how you might think so.

    I look at it in the following manner:

    A raped/molested child may have psychological issues for the remainder of their life, and at the least, will always remember the occurrence.
    A raped/molested adult may have psychological issues for the remainder of their life, and at the least, will always remember the occurrence.
    A murdered person is, obviously dead, and thus (depending on your spiritual beliefs) no longer capable of having any psychological issues.

    While neither situation is acceptable in any way, I consider the long-term lingering harm to a child or an adult to be worse than murder in some cases.

    Suffering, in other terms.

    Some persons, obviously, are more able than others to cope with such issues.
    Some persons, obviously, may receive proper psychological care after an incident of this sort, and some may not.

    These factors lead me to believe that depending on the individual situation, in some cases the person’s suffering due to the rape/molestation incident would be greater than if they had been murdered.

    In other words, I find all terrible and unacceptable, but in some cases it might be less terrible for someone to die than live (from their perspective).

    You probably disagree with me.

    As to your questions:
    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    You'd rather your kid be murdered than molested?
    I would rather neither. Even though I don’t have a kid, do you honestly expect me, or any person, to be capable of choosing one or the other? I would probably be incapable of choosing.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    You'd rather be murdered yourself, than raped?
    Again, I would rather neither, but…
    I would probably go for the latter, because depending on the situation I would probably consider myself potentially capable of mental recovery from the incident.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  4. #154
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    154,912

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    This is what I am talking about;

    Implied Consent; "Implied consent is a form of consent which is not expressly granted by a person, but rather inferred from a person's actions and the facts and circumstances of a particular situation (or in some cases, by a person's silence or inaction). "
    You did not address my point at all. You have not taken into consideration the psychological effects of the rape. It is the woman's right, based on this trauma, when she reports or not reports it. The rape happened to her. Implied consent does not apply here because of the context of the rape and the woman's psychological state... or, if it does, her psychological state mitigates that consent.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #155
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    10-26-10 @ 05:34 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,978

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    I would rather neither. Even though I don’t have a kid, do you honestly expect me, or any person, to be capable of choosing one or the other? I would probably be incapable of choosing.
    Yes, I do.
    Any parent in their right mind, forced to choose, would choose their child's life.
    WTF, are you mad?

    Don't say you'd be "incapable of choosing"; you're not even a parent, i'm sure the hypothetical idea doesn't traumatize you to the point that you can't answer the question.
    You- and nobody but you- are the one who set up this "hierarchy" of crime: in your model, murder is the least of the three evils, rape is worse, and child molestation is the worst of all. You posted this yourself; I quoted you directly.

    There is a member who doesn't post much here anymore. Her child- now grown- was, years ago, molested by her former husband.
    Do you think she'd rather her grown daughter was dead? Murdered?
    Do you think she really needs to sit down and contemplate that?
    Do you think she'd say, "I can't possibly decide if it would be better if my daughter had been murdered instead of molested; how do you expect me to make such a choice?"

    I don't know if there are any parents on here who have lost a son or daughter. If there are, do you think they'd prefer to have their child alive again, even if he or she had been molested?
    Don't you think they'd wish their child back to life in any condition, if they had that option?
    Do you think, given the option, they'd say, "How do you expect us to choose??"

    Any parent would prefer to have their child alive, even if psychologically traumatized; the end.

    And as I said, there are many rape survivors here on the forum. Not "victims".
    Survivors.
    Because they are powerful people who lead meaningful lives.
    And no, they do not believe- nor does anyone else- that it would've been better if they'd been murdered; I'm sure that the hypothetical question is not too perplexing for them to contemplate.
    Last edited by 1069; 03-23-10 at 09:23 PM.

  6. #156
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Nun-ya-dang Bidness
    Last Seen
    02-19-11 @ 02:14 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    3,981

    Cool Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You did not address my point at all. You have not taken into consideration the psychological effects of the rape. It is the woman's right, based on this trauma, when she reports or not reports it. The rape happened to her. Implied consent does not apply here because of the context of the rape and the woman's psychological state... or, if it does, her psychological state mitigates that consent.
    I understand what you are saying.

    Do you understand the reality that the longer she waits,... the greater the likelyhood that the authorities (when she finally does report it) will be weighing her claims against 'implied consent?'

  7. #157
    Sporadic insanity normal.

    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    20,953

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Yes, I do.
    Any parent in their right mind, forced to choose, would choose their child's life.
    WTF, are you mad?

    Don't say you'd be "incapable of choosing"; you're not even a parent, I’m sure the hypothetical idea doesn't traumatize you to the point that you can't answer the question.
    You- and nobody but you- are the one who set up this "hierarchy" of crime: in your model, murder is the least of the three evils, rape is worse, and child molestation is the worst of all. You posted this yourself; I quoted you directly.

    There is a member who doesn't post much here anymore. Her child- now grown- was, years ago, molested by her former husband.
    Do you think she'd rather her grown daughter was dead? Murdered?
    Do you think she really needs to sit down and contemplate that?
    Do you think she'd say, "I can't possibly decide if it would be better if my daughter had been murdered instead of molested; how do you expect me to make such a choice?"

    I don't know if there are any parents on here who have lost a son or daughter. If there are, do you think they'd prefer to have their child alive again, even if he or she had been molested?
    Don't you think they'd wish their child back to life in any condition, if they had that option?
    Do you think, given the option, they'd say, "How do you expect us to choose??"

    Any parent would prefer to have their child alive, even if psychologically traumatized; the end.

    And as I said, there are many rape survivors here on the forum. Not "victims".
    Survivors.
    Because they are powerful people who lead meaningful lives.
    And no, they do not believe- nor does anyone else- that it would've been better if they'd been murdered; I'm sure that the hypothetical question is not too perplexing for them to contemplate.
    I was not attempting to say that one or the other would be preferable. Simply that IMO, in terms of the prolonged pain/suffering caused to the subject of such, murder is the least of the three.

    After further thought, if forced to choose between them, through some means, obviously I would not choose murder. I would hold out hope that I could help them through the mental trauma resulting from the rape. So you are correct.

    As to your comments regarding “victims” vs. “survivors”, are you willing to state that no instance of molestation/rape has ever resulted in mental harm to the person who was subjected to such, to a degree which results in their undergoing more suffering than if they had simply been murdered? I never stated that this hypothetical was a catchall for such situations; I simply said that in some cases it may be…the case.

    In reference to my mental “hierarchy” of crimes, I thought I had stated that I based this on the “suffering” that the targets of said crimes undergo.
    It is impossible to deny that all three are heinous, but murder, if it has any good points, at the least does not result in prolonged suffering, whether mental or physical.
    The other two do.

    It’s sort of like trying to quantify infinity.

    All three crimes I placed into my “hierarchy” are infinitely heinous, terrible, horrible, etc.
    So placing one above or below the other in a list holds no real meaning as to my preference for which one I would suggest a family member suffer.

    I actually first came up with that “hierarchy” in a discussion regarding punishment for child molesters.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #158
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    10-26-10 @ 05:34 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,978

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I was not attempting to say that one or the other would be preferable. Simply that IMO, in terms of the prolonged pain/suffering caused to the subject of such, murder is the least of the three.

    After further thought, if forced to choose between them, through some means, obviously I would not choose murder. I would hold out hope that I could help them through the mental trauma resulting from the rape. So you are correct.

    As to your comments regarding “victims” vs. “survivors”, are you willing to state that no instance of molestation/rape has ever resulted in mental harm to the person who was subjected to such, to a degree which results in their undergoing more suffering than if they had simply been murdered? I never stated that this hypothetical was a catchall for such situations; I simply said that in some cases it may be…the case.

    In reference to my mental “hierarchy” of crimes, I thought I had stated that I based this on the “suffering” that the targets of said crimes undergo.
    It is impossible to deny that all three are heinous, but murder, if it has any good points, at the least does not result in prolonged suffering, whether mental or physical.
    The other two do.

    It’s sort of like trying to quantify infinity.

    All three crimes I placed into my “hierarchy” are infinitely heinous, terrible, horrible, etc.
    So placing one above or below the other in a list holds no real meaning as to my preference for which one I would suggest a family member suffer.

    I actually first came up with that “hierarchy” in a discussion regarding punishment for child molesters.

    I'm sure you have a mom.
    All you have to ask yourself is, would you rather your mom was raped tomorrow, or murdered?
    Would you rather your mom had been molested as a child, or murdered?

    I mean, clearly, being murdered is worse than being forced to have sex against one's will.
    If you believe the statistics, practically half the dang world's been molested and/or raped.
    If they'd all been murdered, I can't see how that would be better. I can't see how it wouldn't be worse.

    Oh well. Pardon the digression. Back to topic.

  9. #159
    Sporadic insanity normal.

    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    20,953

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    I'm sure you have a mom.
    All you have to ask yourself is, would you rather your mom was raped tomorrow, or murdered?
    Would you rather your mom had been molested as a child, or murdered?

    I mean, clearly, being murdered is worse than being forced to have sex against one's will.
    If you believe the statistics, practically half the dang world's been molested and/or raped.
    If they'd all been murdered, I can't see how that would be better. I can't see how it wouldn't be worse.

    Oh well. Pardon the digression. Back to topic.
    I addressed all of these points in the post you just quoted.

    Or at least I thought I did.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #160
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    154,912

    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    I understand what you are saying.

    Do you understand the reality that the longer she waits,... the greater the likelyhood that the authorities (when she finally does report it) will be weighing her claims against 'implied consent?'
    I think it depends on specific circumstances. Since it is a well known fact that rape is a trauma and different folks deal with trauma differently, it would depend on the circumstances of the rape. Implied consent can be an issue in ANY rape. Psychological trauma can easily explain that away.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

Page 16 of 19 FirstFirst ... 61415161718 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •