View Poll Results: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

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  • No - Not under any circumstances ever

    5 10.87%
  • No - Not under the circumstances given (please explain)

    4 8.70%
  • Yes - If the law required the rape to be reported immediately

    11 23.91%
  • Yes - As long as the rape is reported in a timely manner

    14 30.43%
  • Other

    12 26.09%
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Thread: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

  1. #131
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't think monitoring is necessary, less there is real reason to believe that the woman may act in manners which would endanger the child and that can be proven in a court of law in order to obtain a warrant.

    But of course it's a human being. Human is human.
    For clarification, would a woman be legally obliged to state that she is pregnant so she could be monitored for abuse of the human inside her? If not, what would stop her from "attending" to the problem herself?


  2. #132
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    So, how far are you willing to go to protect the rights of the unborn?
    As I said, if it could be proven in a court of law for a warrant sure. But that's that. You're not going to catch everything and even if you make certain things illegal, it won't always stop the behavior. You may not know until it is too late, but without the ability of foresight, it's pretty tough to police the future.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  3. #133
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    For clarification, would a woman be legally obliged to state that she is pregnant so she could be monitored for abuse of the human inside her?
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    If not, what would stop her from "attending" to the problem herself?
    Nothing...well maybe conscience and high probability of damage.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #134
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    As I said, if it could be proven in a court of law for a warrant sure. But that's that. You're not going to catch everything and even if you make certain things illegal, it won't always stop the behavior. You may not know until it is too late, but without the ability of foresight, it's pretty tough to police the future.
    Well, maybe we should set up a hotline like we do with child abuse so neighbors can report their neighbors or friends for drinking/smoking/getting high while pregnant. How far would we go? Certain STDs can also be harmful to the fetus, so clearly we'd have to prohibit promiscuous sex by the mother. Should she be allowed to work? Or would she have to submit a doctor's note to state that working is allowed?

    The problem with the abortion debate isn't in the theoretical realm. It's in the practical realm. Once we extend/recognize the natural rights of the fetus, it sets all kinds of other enforcement action into place to ensure that the fetus is given the proper protection it deserves under the law.

    The fact of the matter is that some women have ALWAYS self-selected infanticide, either before or after birth. If we outlaw abortion, we must set up a mechanism by which we then prosecute any attempt to harm a fetus.

    Do you really want to go there? I mean, it's not as if our current child protective mechanisms have been a wild success...

  5. #135
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    I mean, we're leaving the realm of philosophical question and more now into a discussion on mechanics should such a thing be in place. If we're still going by the unborn child being recognized as full human life; then some of what you say would have to be implemented. The practical outcome is not a whole lot of monitoring or things of that nature. Mostly, unless warrant can be obtained, it would be as most things are now; punishment once the crime is committed and found out. Murder is illegal in the country, but we don't monitor everyone because everyone has the ability to murder. If there is a murder, we have police investigate it and try to find the guilty party.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #136
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No

    Nothing...well maybe conscience and high probability of damage.
    Ah but with things like abortion pills available, which make abortion less risky. Would this then mean the banning and outlaw of certain medicines/products which can induce miscarriages?


  7. #137
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Ah but with things like abortion pills available, which make abortion less risky. Would this then mean the banning and outlaw of certain medicines/products which can induce miscarriages?
    In the context of the hypothetical, yes I would say those would definitely be outlawed.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Mostly, unless warrant can be obtained, it would be as most things are now; punishment once the crime is committed and found out. Murder is illegal in the country, but we don't monitor everyone because everyone has the ability to murder. If there is a murder, we have police investigate it and try to find the guilty party.
    Wrong. A child protective services investigation is launched on a report basis. That means that if a child is endangered in the womb, we would likely follow our current protocols. In point of fact, a child protective investigation operates with a "guilty until proven innocent" premise because the responsibility to the child is primary. That's where this would go, if we took the theoretical premise you've endorsed into the real world. The fetus would be incapable of testifying and thus, we would rely on outside reports of harm.

  9. #139
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Well, maybe we should set up a hotline like we do with child abuse so neighbors can report their neighbors or friends for drinking/smoking/getting high while pregnant. How far would we go? Certain STDs can also be harmful to the fetus, so clearly we'd have to prohibit promiscuous sex by the mother. Should she be allowed to work? Or would she have to submit a doctor's note to state that working is allowed?
    Yes, this all gets ridiculously tricky when you're clearly reaching and trying to say things that are relatively common sense when compared to a current situation but would not give you ammunition for your rhetoric.

    For example...

    Why would you need a way to report potential abuse any different than what's currently there with Child Protective Services. If you see your neighbor drinking nightly and screaming at his kids you can report it. What's different about seeing them down a bottle of jack while 8 months pregnant?

    Working could theoritically dangerous to children who are born because that can cause stress on the mother and takes time away from the children thus possibly making her less likely to be alert to a potential danger such as a kid falling in the pool otu back. Yet we don't require doctors notes to allow women to work then. At most, you could potentially look at a law requiring pregnancy time off to be given after "X" amount of months but even that wouldn't be entirely needed and its not like there isn't laws in place now to allow pregnant wome nto take time off when/if need be.

    Further the attempt to compare these things to that of abortion is ludicrous in and of itself. There is a large difference between taking actions that may potentially, in some cases in a VERY off shot (like promiscuous sex), and takin an action that is 100%, without question, damaging to the fetus.

    We don't actively monitor or have extremely detailed laws about a LOT of things that can harm, do damage, or even lead to the deaths of our BORN children. Outside of beating your children or actually killing them most of it is based on reports and then investigations into mistreatment. The general assumption with the government dealing with Children is that you're going to be taking care of them unless there is reason present to make the government believe otherwise. Actively going to a clinic and saying "Give me an abortion" would be such type of a reason in this hypothetical. Your neighbor seeing you punching your stomach and downing a fifth of jack and calling in would be a reason. Simply being pregnant is not a reason for the Government to actively believe you're going to mistreat the child anymore than simply having a born child is reason for the government to actively believe it.

    The practical realm only presents this big of a problem is if you refuse to be anything but obtsue about the situation and apply simple logic and common sense that much of the same rules that apply to children now could apply then. Abortion would be much like the current laws now which, you know, say you can't go and chop your kids head off.

    There would be no reason to extend them greater protection than is afforded other children in this hypothetical situation.

  10. #140
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    Re: Would you support a 'rape exception' to a government ban on elective abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Wrong. A child protective services investigation is launched on a report basis. That means that if a child is endangered in the womb, we would likely follow our current protocols. In point of fact, a child protective investigation operates with a "guilty until proven innocent" premise because the responsibility to the child is primary. That's where this would go, if we took the theoretical premise you've endorsed into the real world. The fetus would be incapable of testifying and thus, we would rely on outside reports of harm.
    Well you're starting to mix an idealization with reality. If we were going by my idealization of government; things would not be the same at all. I can't say I'm 100% down with the current use of government force and child services. Sure there is legitimate means to it, but it oft is ineffective. I would probably be more inclined to handle it much like any other crime.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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