View Poll Results: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation of Arms?

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Thread: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

  1. #201
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    What good is a rebellion, started and defeated, if it is known that there is no chance that it might have succeeded?
    To keep the government honest, as Jefferson wrote:

    what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?
    He also is not saying that the rebellion's grievances should *all* be ignored.
    True.

    In short, you are being very one sided, very black and white about what he is saying in this writing. His position is nuanced.
    I think I'm the nuanced one, and the people who go around spewing the "blood of tyrants" quote are the ones being black and white.

    He is certainly not saying that rebellions should all fail. Do you think he thought the American Revolution should have been a rebellion that failed?
    Of course not. He wrote the Declaration of Independence, as I noted.

    He is acknowleging both the good and the bad that goes with armed insurrection. One key thing he points out is that armed rebellion is good for preserving liberty.
    Yes.

    He was NOT saying, as was claimed, that we should have a SUCCESSFUL rebellion every generation and rewrite our Constitution.

    Which is precisely what everyone pro 2nd amendment has been saying here.
    Yes. I'm pro-second amendment too.

  2. #202
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    But that wasn't his meaning either - he clearly states otherwise. Read the letter. He clearly said the rebels were not traitors nor the victors tyrants:
    I understand that's what he meant, but that is not reality then or now. If only one dead person, Jefferson in this case, thinks rebels were not traitors and the rest of humanity doesn't think that because as I stated, the victors write the history, what Jefferson thinks/thought is/was irrelevant.

    It's nice theory for statesmen to ponder. There are very few statesmen left and most either don't care or couldn't be bothered. Reality and theory very often never meet - therefore, reality is: If you bother to rebel, win and either preserve, build upon or recreate the country. On this issue, Jefferson seems to me weak.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  3. #203
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    What do you think he meant by "Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them."

    Hint: it's not that he wants the rebellions to actually succeed.

    And yet you didn't answer what you thought my quote meant... because you know that he is calling for rebellion each generation.

    I agree with you that he didn't necessarily want them to succeed. He is addressing the issue as to what to do with them when they don't and additionally when they are wrong to have begun. He is addressing a broad swath of causes for rebellion, including when such rebellion has been entered into due to mistaken notions. Do you really believe that he thinks all rebellions are entered into for mistaken notions?

    So, what do you think this has to say about the 2nd amendment? Do you think it supports any kind of argument as to whether the 2nd ought to allow gun control? Does he seem to you to be calling for confiscating the arms of these rebels?

  4. #204
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I understand that's what he meant, but that is not reality then or now. If only one dead person, Jefferson in this case, thinks rebels were not traitors and the rest of humanity doesn't think that because as I stated, the victors write the history, what Jefferson thinks/thought is/was irrelevant.

    It's nice theory for statesmen to ponder. There are very few statesmen left and most either don't care or couldn't be bothered. Reality and theory very often never meet - therefore, reality is: If you bother to rebel, win and either preserve, build upon or recreate the country. On this issue, Jefferson seems to me weak.
    I was just responding to a certain claim about Jefferson's writings on this thread. Debunking it.

  5. #205
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    And yet you didn't answer what you thought my quote meant... because you know that he is calling for rebellion each generation.
    Uh, no, I did respond.

    He was saying that rebellion is not a sign of weakness, but strength. He was responding to critics in Britain at the time.

    He was NOT calling for regular rebellions to be successful.

    I agree with you that he didn't necessarily want them to succeed.
    Then we agree.

    He is addressing the issue as to what to do with them when they don't and additionally when they are wrong to have begun. He is addressing a broad swath of causes for rebellion, including when such rebellion has been entered into due to mistaken notions. Do you really believe that he thinks all rebellions are entered into for mistaken notions?
    No, didn't say that. I'm putting the "tree of liberty" quote in context. It clearly doesn't call for a successful rebellion every generation, as some here claimed. That's all.

    So, what do you think this has to say about the 2nd amendment? Do you think it supports any kind of argument as to whether the 2nd ought to allow gun control? Does he seem to you to be calling for confiscating the arms of these rebels?
    That's a good question. He doesn't really address it here, though he does say "pacify" them. I think he would say they need to be defeated, then educated about why they were wrong to rebel and given concessions for some of their demands, and then sent home - with their guns.

  6. #206
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    To keep the government honest, as Jefferson wrote:
    But, it wouldn't do those things unless it had the possibility of success. The warning would be without any teeth, and the spirit would be without substance.

    I think I'm the nuanced one, and the people who go around spewing the "blood of tyrants" quote are the ones being black and white.
    Perhaps they are. But if so, you are doing the same thing from the opposite stance. He doesn't seem to be saying that the rebellions should fail either. And the whole thing about preserving Liberty must of necessity have the notion of tyrants intertwined with it. There is no need of preserving Liberty if there are no tyrants from which to protect it.

  7. #207
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    I've just obtained my conceal and carry. I don't think it's as much being paranoid what the government will do, it's what it is capable of doing.

    Just a quick look at history tells us what they do when they feel someone is building a militia. Now, I am NOT saying that those who have stock piled weapons were "all there" to begin with - but the point is, most were law abiding citizens and kept to themselves. They obtained their firearms legally and were breaking NO laws. Still, they were converged on and their weapons seized.

    Well, enough of that... I'm sure someone will come along soon enough and call me a paranoid gun freak.
    You paranoid gun freak!



    Ive carried concealed for...geez...30 years now. Ive had reason to pull a weapon 4 times. Point it once. Never had to fire it. Emphasis on HAD TO. Could have. Didnt. The presence was enough.

    2 were directly involving someone confronting me...both times with weapons. The other two involved strangers...people I really didnt HAVE to get involved with. 1 of those incidents involved a very pregnant woman and her toddler being pulled out of a car by some very unsavory types. In exactly none of those incidents was there a police officer handy. I dont fault them...its not like they can be everywhere. It IS a little annpying that in the last case it took them over 20 minutes to respond...and I really dont want to imagine what might have happened.

    I think the founders would roll over in their grave and tell us all to kiss their collective asses if they saw the pathetic nature of people today and their dependence on the government to take care of them. Knowing something of their history I cant imagine their intent in a bill of individual rights that they would ever conceive that we would ever even CONSIDER disarming ourselves as a people. I believe the ability to protect SELF was 'understood'. I believe the second amendment supports the right of the individual to protect themselves, their family, their state, and ultimately country from tyranny.

  8. #208
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    But, it wouldn't do those things unless it had the possibility of success. The warning would be without any teeth, and the spirit would be without substance.
    He wasn't saying they couldn't succeed, only that they were not a sign that the government was weak or corrupt.

    But if you think it's pointless to have a rebellion that can't succeed, you'll have to take that up with Jefferson.

    Perhaps they are. But if so, you are doing the same thing from the opposite stance. He doesn't seem to be saying that the rebellions should fail either.
    Yes, I think he is. He says the answer is to "pacify" them, and educate them, etc.

    And the whole thing about preserving Liberty must of necessity have the notion of tyrants intertwined with it. There is no need of preserving Liberty if there are no tyrants from which to protect it.
    Sure, but the threat of rebellion can also prevent or even overthrow tyrants.

  9. #209
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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Clinton wasn't from Illinois.
    Neither is Obama. Not sure what that has to do with a run on ammo when he became president.

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    Re: Would You Resist Federal Confiscation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Screwdrivers cannot secure your right to self-determination, guns can.
    Depends on how many your opponent can drink and pass out before you.

    You don't think people would violently revolt if the Federal government did away with Constitutional Due Process? I'm pretty sure Americans would never stand for that.
    I'm sure they wouldn't, but like guns, Due Process is not being done away with.

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