View Poll Results: See OP: Who is responsible for the death of the human shields?

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Thread: Human shields

  1. #71
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes it does. You cannot be "forced" into shooting someone. You may feel as if you have no other choice.
    Sometimes, there is no other choice.

  2. #72
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes it does. You cannot be "forced" into shooting someone. You may feel as if you have no other choice. You may feel as if you are justified. But you are never forced into pulling the trigger. That is always a decision you make yourself and as such you bear responsibility for the consequences of that action.
    Circumstantially, yes you can be forced to perform a lethal action. People with military, law enforcement, and many with regular firearms/tactical training do have reflexive actions that are second nature, including pulling the trigger under duress.

    For instance, at the range I pull with fingers to the side of the trigger and as soon as I bring to level I'm on the trigger, this is a reflexive and I do it before I even thought about it, tactical training has a reflexive shot for just about any circumstance, and the reason being is that many of these decisions are made within less than 2 seconds. In those instances the human mind and thinking is a disadvantage in that an attacker has no inclination to worry about their consequences and does not care if they kill you, if you have a moral blip, you will die.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  3. #73
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Side A and side B are fighting a war.

    Side A uses human shields to protect its forces.
    Side B attacks the forces of side A, and the human shields die
    (Clarification -- the human shields involuntary act as such)

    Who is responsible for the death of the human sheilds?
    >>

    Since it's based on a supposition, probably to justify collateral damage, either answer is non-productive.

    It's like the age-old... "When did you stop beating your wife?"

    ricksfolly

  4. #74
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I think you get into trouble when you start discussing 'strategic significance'. This is entirely subjective, and it doesnt even necessarily apply.
    Not if the "highest order of strategic significance" is clearly defined. The subjectivity would exist if it's not defined, or during the defining process, but once it is clearly defined, then the situation loses subjectivity.

    As it stands, it is not defined except at the subjective level. This is a mistake, because what I described does occur to some degree. It is just not consistent in application.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  5. #75
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Not so much -- its OK for you and I to do it, under similar circumstances.
    So when the government says it's okay to kill, then we can. Got it.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  6. #76
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Sometimes, there is no other choice.
    There's always another choice... Dying is one of them. Be killed rather than kill.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  7. #77
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Not if the "highest order of strategic significance" is clearly defined. The subjectivity would exist if it's not defined, or during the defining process, but once it is clearly defined, then the situation loses subjectivity.

    As it stands, it is not defined except at the subjective level. This is a mistake, because what I described does occur to some degree. It is just not consistent in application.
    Well, OK -- but my contention comes from the use of the term 'strategic'. There are several different levels of conflict and concern, and I am not sure that only the 'strategic' level need apply.

  8. #78
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    So when the government says it's okay to kill, then we can. Got it.
    All rights have boundaries, deliniating what actions fall under the auspices of a right, and what actions do not. The specifics of these boundaries are defined through varuous governmental interactions.

    However, you do not need to ask the government for permission before you ecercise your right to self-defense.

    And so, no, that's not how it is.

    The individual right to self-defense, expressed collectively, is the basis for the act of war and the act of captial punishment -- to protect the self from those that would harm it.

  9. #79
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    It's like the age-old... "When did you stop beating your wife?"
    No. Its not.
    If all you were going to do is avoid the question, you should not have bothered responding.

  10. #80
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Well, OK -- but my contention comes from the use of the term 'strategic'. There are several different levels of conflict and concern, and I am not sure that only the 'strategic' level need apply.
    Fair enough. There may be other considerations I hadn't thought of that might be valid mitigating factors. If they exist, they too should be clearly defined.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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