View Poll Results: See OP: Who is responsible for the death of the human shields?

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Thread: Human shields

  1. #51
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I'd argue that there are situations where it is immoral to NOT attack the targets defended by human shields.
    Like when those targets take human shields while they attack your citizens.

    That's the ultimate opposition to the number one purpose of the military, to defend the citizens of the country.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  2. #52
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You still bear some responsibility for having killed those innocent people though. That is an inescapable truth.
    Your actions were forced by the situation. You had no choice.
    And so, while they died by your actions, the responsibility for those deaths fall on those that placed them in danger.

  3. #53
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Prove it? Legally you are not.
    Did you drop the bomb or pull the trigger which fired the projectile? Did either the bomb or the projectile kill someone? If so, you are at least partially responsible for the death of the person you killed.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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  4. #54
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Your actions were forced by the situation. You had no choice.
    And so, while they died by your actions, the responsibility for those deaths fall on those that placed them in danger.
    You are always responsible for your own actions. If you pull the trigger and shoot someone, you are responsible for that action and the death, at least in part. What you're looking for is "justifiable" not "responsible".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #55
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Did you drop the bomb or pull the trigger which fired the projectile? Did either the bomb or the projectile kill someone? If so, you are at least partially responsible for the death of the person you killed.
    Well if that is all you are saying I can agree. Legally, it means nothing though.

    So basically the responsibility means nothing as it has no ramifications.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-11-10 at 02:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #56
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Who is making excuses? To be a soldier you have to be willing to do the job. If you are not, stay the hell out of the way.

    Yes ignoring international law, that pretty much sums up your argument.
    I am not ignoring international law. In questioning who is responsible, you don't need to even consider international law. International law is for arguments of justifiability, not responsibility. Responsibility comes from actions. You do X or you do not do X. That's it. If you pull a trigger and kill an innocent person, you are responsible at least in part for that death. Maybe you were justified in that act, maybe you weren't. But that's not the question, the question is responsibility. You kill someone you directly contributed to that person not being alive anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Not according to the information I posted. So far you have posted nothing in the way of facts to back up your position.

    I notice you cut out the article saying the exact opposite. I wonder why?
    Because it was long and it was unnecessary to repost it as you had already posted it and I wasn't responding to that article. We are not arguing justifiable, we are arguing responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    If the enemy is using the person as a shield, no they are not. According to international law and the majority of people.

    Now if you would like to post some FACTS, I am more than ready to hear them?
    Fact. You pull a trigger. Fact you kill an innocent person. Fact, you contributed to the death of that individual. Fact, you bear some responsibility for that person no longer being alive.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #57
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    Re: Human shields

    Side A always bears the majority of the responsibility, but in my opinion, the responsibility of Side B is pretty much situation dependent.

    If the strategic importance of eliminating Side A is not of the highest order, then Side B will always share some responsibility.

    If the strategic importance is of the highest order, and an alternative attack exists that is likely to minimize civilian casualties but it is not attempted, then they also bear some responsibility.

    In cases where the strategic importance is not of the highest order, there is a moral imperative to act at a highesr standard than the opponent, even if that means aborting the mission, IMO.

    In cases where the strategic importance is of the highest order, there is a moral imperative to try and minimize the civilian casualties.

    In cases where the strategic importance is of the highest order and no approach exists that can minimize civilian casualties, or the alternative approach that was attempted fails to achieve that goal, then I would say that Side B is absolved of any moral responsibility.

    But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Well if that is all you are saying I can agree. Legally, it means nothing though.

    So basically the responsibility means nothing as it has no ramifications.
    Responsibility actually has moral implications. And I think they are important because if we accept it, then we can understand the humanity of those we face and are perhaps more likely to seek peaceful solution before jumping into war. War isn't always avoidable, but we should try like the dickens to avoid it. If we have to enter it, we should fight and claw to get out of it ASAP.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #59
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You are always responsible for your own actions. If you pull the trigger and shoot someone, you are responsible for that action and the death, at least in part. What you're looking for is "justifiable" not "responsible".
    I disagree. There are certain situations where your actions are forced by others; in those instances, you are not responsible for your actions.

    -Justifiable- is an entirely different subject.

  10. #60
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Fact. You pull a trigger. Fact you kill an innocent person. Fact, you contributed to the death of that individual. Fact, you bear some responsibility for that person no longer being alive.
    Fact: If no legal repercussions, it means nothing.

    Taking responsibility without any recourse means nothing. I can say I take responsibility all day and if it means nothing but lip service, whats the point?

    I mean I see what you are saying. In the long run though it means nothing on the battlefield.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-11-10 at 02:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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