View Poll Results: See OP: Who is responsible for the death of the human shields?

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Thread: Human shields

  1. #161
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Here in the KJV they use the word "murder" instead of kill. I wonder why those crafty old Catholics would do this when Jesus IS talking about the 6th commandment.
    You do realize that the vast majority of Catholics, and the Vatican, do not use the KJV, right?

    The Vatican uses the Greek and Latin versions.
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  2. #162
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You do realize that the vast majority of Catholics, and the Vatican, do not use the KJV, right?

    The Vatican uses the Greek and Latin versions.

    Going back to the original Hebrew in the OT, I've asked two different observant Jews if they parsed that commandment as "kill" or "murder". Both said "murder".

    But again, I was talking about interpretation through holistic interpretation of scripture.

    Exd 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, [there shall] no blood [be shed] for him.

    Exd 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, [there shall be] blood [shed] for him; [for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
    If a thief is caught in the act, particularly in the night, and is killed, the homeowner is not liable for his death. If he is caught after the fact (ie in the daylight with the stolen goods on him) he should not be killed. This is support for self-defense and defense of the home from break-in, as you don't know someone's intentions when they kick in your door.

    Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
    NT support for capital punishment and indeed for punishment ("revenge" as you say) in general. Actually I dispute that capital punishment is revenge.


    Luk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
    Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
    Jesus' own words. He was warning his apostles and disciples that they would be going out hereafter without his physical presence, and that they needed to make some preparations for dealing with worldly concerns: such as being able to pay for things, and being able to defend themselves from common threats like bandits.



    (Before you chide me about mistranslations and versions, be aware that I quite regularly delve into the original hebrew and greek when engaging in bible study.)


    Now, I do agree with you that God does not look with favor on ALL wars, nor approve of EVERY instance of capital punishment, nor is EVERY man who claims self-defense telling the bare truth... but on the whole the Bible is not nearly as pacifistic as many seem to think.

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  3. #163
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You do realize that the vast majority of Catholics, and the Vatican, do not use the KJV, right?

    The Vatican uses the Greek and Latin versions.
    Which are the non English versions of the KJV.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  4. #164
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The word doesn't mean murder, nor does it mean kill. That's where you fail.
    It means both when used in the proper context. In the context of the OT, it does indeed say murder in the Commandments.

    I mean only the last 500 years of Jewish and biblical scholars came to this conclusion, but what do they know when compared to an Internet search?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    It means something that doesn't get translated to a single word. The fact that you cling to it meaning murder is just a way to justify your subjectivity.
    I never said it did get translated into a single word. I understand the context in scripture.

    I mentioned the fact that it was also including context in my last post. Sorry you missed it.

    I cling to it because it is correct. Has nothing to do with my objectivity one way or the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  5. #165
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Which are the non English versions of the KJV.
    The KJV is not a Catholic bible. Someone who knows this stuff "inside and out" should be aware that it is an Anglican bible. As in Church of England.

    There are no non-English versions of the KJV, because the KJV was specifically made for English-speaking people, as it was intended for an English religion.

    English speaking Catholics use the New American Bible (which was translated directly from the original languages).

    That's because the KJV is a protestant bible, and has never been used by Catholics.

    I'm sure you already knew that since you know this stuff inside and out, though.
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  6. #166
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Going back to the original Hebrew in the OT, I've asked two different observant Jews if they parsed that commandment as "kill" or "murder". Both said "murder".

    But again, I was talking about interpretation through holistic interpretation of scripture.



    If a thief is caught in the act, particularly in the night, and is killed, the homeowner is not liable for his death. If he is caught after the fact (ie in the daylight with the stolen goods on him) he should not be killed. This is support for self-defense and defense of the home from break-in, as you don't know someone's intentions when they kick in your door.



    NT support for capital punishment and indeed for punishment ("revenge" as you say) in general. Actually I dispute that capital punishment is revenge.




    Jesus' own words. He was warning his apostles and disciples that they would be going out hereafter without his physical presence, and that they needed to make some preparations for dealing with worldly concerns: such as being able to pay for things, and being able to defend themselves from common threats like bandits.



    (Before you chide me about mistranslations and versions, be aware that I quite regularly delve into the original hebrew and greek when engaging in bible study.)


    Now, I do agree with you that God does not look with favor on ALL wars, nor approve of EVERY instance of capital punishment, nor is EVERY man who claims self-defense telling the bare truth... but on the whole the Bible is not nearly as pacifistic as many seem to think.
    I actually don't disagree with anything you said at all, Goshin.

    As far as the Hebrew goes, I would say that there is an ongoing debate between Hebrew scholars on the matter. It's not a simple "murder" vs. "killing" debate, as the meanings of these English words do not fully encapsulate the meaning of the Hebrew word (according to these scholars). The full meaning is indeed explained through the rest of the bible.

    But here's where Catholics and protestants differ.

    The main reason the Catholics prefer "kill" to "murder" is because the Bible itself dictates which types of actions are self-defense etc, and are thus justifiable killings and non-sins, not the laws of the land one is in. Murder, in English, simply means illegal killing, and is open to far more subjective interpretation than "killing" is.

    This is, because as you point out, the Bible specifically states the exact conditions for justifiable killing that doesn't constitute a sin.

    The Catholic church believes that using "murder" creates more ambiguity for things that superficially resemble the situations described in the bible, but are not explicitly stated.


    Also, I don't think the OT is pacifistic. Quite the opposite in fact. However, I do think the NT is far more pacifistic than it is violent, but still allows for violence in certain situations.

    However, using the context of the bible, Old and New, most killing is to be avoided at all costs. And even justifiable killing is to be avoided if at all possible. And revenge killing is never justified, for forgiveness is the ultimate virtue. Which is why the Catholic church opposes the death penalty. Only God can pass judgment and take revenge. We have been told to forgive and forgo revenge.

    Essentially, the Catholics feel that only God can justify killing, not the legal system of a nation. God has left examples of what are justifiable killings, and Jesus expanded upon that in the New testament by spending quite a bit of time focusing on forgiveness.


    That's there prerogative. According to strict adherence to Catholicism, the Iraqi war was a sinful war because it was not done for defense, and all efforts at peace had not been exhausted.

    Thus if someone shoots through a "meat shield", as BD puts it, to get the "bad guy", they are in fact committing a sin, and full responsibility lays on them for the innocent death, even if they shot in self-defense, because their "sinful" ways put them in danger in the first place.

    Many sects of Protestantism clearly have a less stringent view on the matter.

    Which side is right?

    Only God knows for sure, and that's the truth of it.
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  7. #167
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The KJV is not a Catholic bible. Someone who knows this stuff "inside and out" should be aware that it is an Anglican bible. As in Church of England.
    I am not a Catholic. I never said I know the Catholic Bible inside out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    There are no non-English versions of the KJV, because the KJV was specifically made for English-speaking people, as it was intended for an English religion.

    English speaking Catholics use the New American Bible (which was translated directly from the original languages).

    That's because the KJV is a protestant bible, and has never been used by Catholics.

    I'm sure you already knew that since you know this stuff inside and out, though.
    Actually some of this I did not know, as I said more than 1 time, I am not Catholic. This does not change the fact that it is a mistranslation even according the Hebrews. So your argument is still non existent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #168
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Side A and side B are fighting a war.

    Side A uses human shields to protect its forces.
    Side B attacks the forces of side A, and the human shields die
    (Clarification -- the human shields involuntary act as such)

    Who is responsible for the death of the human sheilds?
    I can't determine who is at fault with the information provided.

    Recent history teaches us that whoever gets the best press coverage is in the right, and the other party is in the wrong. Also, one has to consider that right and wrong have been rendered highly subjective, the meaning of which can change depending on the audience.

    History is no longer written by the victor because the real war isn't being waged on the battlefield.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  9. #169
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I am not a Catholic. I never said I know the Catholic Bible inside out.
    Actually, you did.

    Please Tucker, do not try and preach my own Bible to me. I know it inside and out in it's many different translations and versions. As I have shown you are incorrect, and it does not work like that in this case.
    "inside and out in it's many different translations and versions"

    That statement has been proven to be bull****. You don't even know much about the English translations. Hell, you don't even know which religion uses them. For example, the KJV is protestant.

    You also claimed "99.9% of the Bible rendered it this way for a reason. "

    Here's a stat, (and unlike yours, mine's real). There are 2.1-2.2 billion Christians in the world. About 50% are Roman Catholic. 1.1 billion or so.

    How could 99.9 percent of the bibles be rendered this way when 50% of the people who would read it are of a faith that disagrees with it?

    (Not to mention the fact that most of them aren't rendered in English)




    Actually some of this I did not know, as I said more than 1 time, I am not Catholic. This does not change the fact that it is a mistranslation even according the Hebrews. So your argument is still non existent.
    It's a direct translation from the original texts, which are mostly in the possession of the Catholic church.

    Which Church would you bet has the most original, untranslated biblical texts in the world?

    But, yes, because you disagree and can make **** up while not presenting a single fact, my argument is nonexistent.
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  10. #170
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You also claimed "99.9% of the Bible rendered it this way for a reason. "

    Here's a stat, (and unlike yours, mine's real). There are 2.1-2.2 billion Christians in the world. About 50% are Roman Catholic. 1.1 billion or so.

    How could 99.9 percent of the bibles be rendered this way when 50% of the people who would read it are of a faith that disagrees with it?

    (Not to mention the fact that most of them aren't rendered in English)
    Strike this. I misunderstood what you had written to mean 99.9 percent of bibles rendered it this way.

    Ass far as the Hebrew word being debated, it is actually used as often to describe different types of lawful killings (involuntary manslaughter) as it is unlawful killings (murder).

    But my mistake on teh confusion. I read it wrong.
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