View Poll Results: See OP: Who is responsible for the death of the human shields?

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Thread: Human shields

  1. #151
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    As we all are.
    Of course. I didn't mean that as a bad thing.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  2. #152
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Of course. I didn't mean that as a bad thing.
    Was not taken that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #153
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Was not taken that way.
    Okay, good to know. Sometimes it's hard to tell on the internet.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  4. #154
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Sure, it's a solution I'll give you that.
    It is the second worst solution, right after shooting the innocent and then committing suicide.
    I'm glad you have your opinion and that I have mine.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  5. #155
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    I'm glad you have your opinion and that I have mine.
    Whatever makes you glad then.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  6. #156
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That is not true and does not even apply. The word for murder was mistranslated as killing in the KJV. Most other Bibles have corrected this mistake.

    End of story.
    The Hebrew word used in the ten commandments also appears in Deuteronomy 19:4-6, which describes an accidental killing.

    It occurs in other places as well.

    Anyone with any sense of linguistics at all knows that many words exist that are not easily translated into another language as a single word. It's pure idiocy to assume that either "Murder" or "Killing" fully encapsulate the meaning of the Hebrew word.

    One thing I give credit to the Catholics about, their version is less prone to hypocritical justification. Most protestants I know are so steeped in subjectivity on the killing matter that I often laugh my ass off when they say someone else is guilty of moral subjectivism.



    Please Tucker, do not try and preach my own Bible to me. I know it inside and out in it's many different translations and versions. As I have shown you are incorrect, and it does not work like that in this case.
    How is saying little more than "you're wrong, I'm right" showing that someone is incorrect?


    It is not a question of interpretation, it is an admitted mistranslation.
    Pure nonsense. The word is more complicated than Murder or Kill in English, which is what actually causes the translation problem. It is exactly a matter of interpretation because it cannot be adequately translated into English using a single word.



    Taken out of context and without any real knowledge of the Bible, I can see how you and others would make that mistake.

    It is a lesson about forgiveness and revenge, not literally letting someone beat you or kill you.
    Ironically, you've misinterpreted what I was trying to get at. I agree that it is a lesson about forgiveness and revenge. It's very clear.

    If you read the Catholic catechisms, you'll see that the Catholics can correctly claim that they follow both the commandment AND Jesus' teachings on the matter. Cases like the Death Penalty (which is undeniably "revenge" killing) and their arguments that war must be, in all cases, a last resort and only in self-defense also conforms to both the Commandment and Jesus' teachings.

    I don't see the same consistency from many Protestant groups. I see moral subjectivity and Justifications for things that should be considered sins by the words of their own savior.

    So be it. It's their choice. My point was that what you consider a sin isn't the same as what others consider a sin and that just because you think you got it right, doesn't actually mean you do.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  7. #157
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The Hebrew word used in the ten commandments also appears in Deuteronomy 19:4-6, which describes an accidental killing.

    It occurs in other places as well.

    Anyone with any sense of linguistics at all knows that many words exist that are not easily translated into another language as a single word. It's pure idiocy to assume that either "Murder" or "Killing" fully encapsulate the meaning of the Hebrew word.
    The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder." 99.9% of the Bible rendered it this way for a reason.

    According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10).

    Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).

    So you can deny it if you like, but I am correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    One thing I give credit to the Catholics about, their version is less prone to hypocritical justification. Most protestants I know are so steeped in subjectivity on the killing matter that I often laugh my ass off when they say someone else is guilty of moral subjectivism.
    And yet Catholics have done more killing in the name of God than any other. Yea they are a perfect choice.

    The same religion that called for the Crusades in God's name.
    The same religion that backed the Nazi's in WWII.
    The same religion that held the inquisition.
    The Same religion that ignores direct commandments like no Idolatry etc.
    The same religion that protects child molesters. In fact it is still going on in other countries now as it was in the US.

    Again, don't try and preach my own religion to me. I know it much better than you my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    How is saying little more than "you're wrong, I'm right" showing that someone is incorrect?
    I posted fact, you posted opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Pure nonsense. The word is more complicated than Murder or Kill in English, which is what actually causes the translation problem. It is exactly a matter of interpretation because it cannot be adequately translated into English using a single word.
    Used in it's proper context it most certainly can. You are trying to make it much more complicated than it is.

    In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus expands on the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude to wards them...

    "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

    "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
    " - Matthew 5:21-26, KJV

    Here in the KJV they use the word "murder" instead of kill. I wonder why those crafty old Catholics would do this when Jesus IS talking about the 6th commandment.

    No misinterpretation here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Ironically, you've misinterpreted what I was trying to get at. I agree that it is a lesson about forgiveness and revenge. It's very clear.
    Could not prove that by what you typed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    If you read the Catholic catechisms, you'll see that the Catholics can correctly claim that they follow both the commandment AND Jesus' teachings on the matter. Cases like the Death Penalty (which is undeniably "revenge" killing) and their arguments that war must be, in all cases, a last resort and only in self-defense also conforms to both the Commandment and Jesus' teachings.
    The "death penalty" is not considered revenge killing. That is an incorrect assumption. That is a governmental issue, not one of spirituality. The words of Christ are not a form of government, he did not get involved in politics at all. Render unto Cesar...and God... his law unlike the first covenant is a personal code for us to follow spiritually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I don't see the same consistency from many Protestant groups. I see moral subjectivity and Justifications for things that should be considered sins by the words of their own savior.
    Well first of all it is because you don't really want to. Second is because you try and use scripture you don't even really know in context, to try and teach us (incorrectly) that do know what is right according to our own religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    So be it. It's their choice. My point was that what you consider a sin isn't the same as what others consider a sin and that just because you think you got it right, doesn't actually mean you do.
    In this case as I have shown again I am correct.

    Now we should return to the subject at hand and stop hijacking the thread with something that was actually a pretty small part of my overall argument.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-14-10 at 03:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #158
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The Hebrew word used in the ten commandments also appears in Deuteronomy 19:4-6, which describes an accidental killing.

    It occurs in other places as well.

    Anyone with any sense of linguistics at all knows that many words exist that are not easily translated into another language as a single word. It's pure idiocy to assume that either "Murder" or "Killing" fully encapsulate the meaning of the Hebrew word.

    One thing I give credit to the Catholics about, their version is less prone to hypocritical justification. Most protestants I know are so steeped in subjectivity on the killing matter that I often laugh my ass off when they say someone else is guilty of moral subjectivism.





    How is saying little more than "you're wrong, I'm right" showing that someone is incorrect?




    Pure nonsense. The word is more complicated than Murder or Kill in English, which is what actually causes the translation problem. It is exactly a matter of interpretation because it cannot be adequately translated into English using a single word.





    Ironically, you've misinterpreted what I was trying to get at. I agree that it is a lesson about forgiveness and revenge. It's very clear.

    If you read the Catholic catechisms, you'll see that the Catholics can correctly claim that they follow both the commandment AND Jesus' teachings on the matter. Cases like the Death Penalty (which is undeniably "revenge" killing) and their arguments that war must be, in all cases, a last resort and only in self-defense also conforms to both the Commandment and Jesus' teachings.

    I don't see the same consistency from many Protestant groups. I see moral subjectivity and Justifications for things that should be considered sins by the words of their own savior.

    So be it. It's their choice. My point was that what you consider a sin isn't the same as what others consider a sin and that just because you think you got it right, doesn't actually mean you do.


    The answer to this question lies in the first principle of hermaneutics (interpretation), which is "first interpret scripture with more scripture".

    "Thou shalt not kill" is a blanket statement. Thou shalt not kill what? Anything? Rabbits? Bugs? Microbes?
    Under what circumstances? "Thou shalt stand still while thine enemy rapes and murders thy daughters"?

    Obviously more interpretation is called for.

    Taken as a whole scripture does not condemn all killing, or all warfare, nor self-defense, nor capital punishment. I can cite scripture supporting this if need be, but it is obvious enough if you read a bit.

    There are reasons why "Thou shalt not kill" is very commonly held to refer to the unlawful or unjustified/unnecessary killing of human beings, rather than simply killing in general.
    Last edited by Goshin; 03-14-10 at 03:34 AM.

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  9. #159
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder." 99.9% of the Bible rendered it this way for a reason.

    According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10).

    Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).

    So you can deny it if you like, but I am correct.



    And yet Catholics have done more killing in the name of God than any other. Yea they are a perfect choice.

    The same religion that called for the Crusades in God's name.
    The same religion that backed the Nazi's in WWII.
    The same religion that held the inquisition.
    The Same religion that ignores direct commandments like no Idolatry etc.
    The same religion that protects child molesters. In fact it is still going on in other countries now as it was in the US.

    Again, don't try and preach my own religion to me. I know it much better than you my friend.



    I posted fact, you posted opinion.



    Used in it's proper context it most certainly can. You are trying to make it much more complicated than it is.

    In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus expands on the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude to wards them...

    "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

    "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
    " - Matthew 5:21-26, KJV

    Here in the KJV they use the word "murder" instead of kill. I wonder why those crafty old Catholics would do this when Jesus IS talking about the 6th commandment.

    No misinterpretation here.



    Could not prove that by what you typed?



    The "death penalty" is not considered revenge killing. That is an incorrect assumption. That is a governmental issue, not one of spirituality. The words of Christ are not a form of government, he did not get involved in politics at all. Render unto Cesar...and God... his law unlike the first covenant is a personal code for us to follow spiritually.



    Well first of all it is because you don't really want to. Second is because you try and use scripture you don't even really know in context, to try and teach us (incorrectly) that do know what is right according to our own religion.



    In this case as I have shown again I am correct.

    Now we should return to the subject at hand and stop hijacking the thread with something that was actually a pretty small part of my overall argument.
    The word doesn't mean murder, nor does it mean kill. That's where you fail. It means something that doesn't get translated to a single word. The fact that you cling to it meaning murder is just a way to justify your subjectivity.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  10. #160
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The answer to this question lies in the first principle of hermaneutics (interpretation), which is "first interpret scripture with more scripture".

    "Thou shalt not kill" is a blanket statement. Thou shalt not kill what? Anything? Rabbits? Bugs? Microbes?
    Under what circumstances? "Thou shalt stand still while thine enemy rapes and murders thy daughters"?

    Obviously more interpretation is called for.

    Taken as a whole scripture does not condemn all killing, or all warfare, nor self-defense, nor capital punishment. I can cite scripture supporting this if need be, but it is obvious enough if you read a bit.

    There are reasons why "Thou shalt not kill" is very commonly held to refer to the unlawful or unjustified/unnecessary killing of human beings, rather than simply killing in general.
    The point is, it doesn't consider all warfare or all legal acts of killing to be Justified either.

    The New Testement is pretty clear against capital punishment, as the "turn the other Cheek" is pretty clearly saying that we should not take revenge. It's also pretty clear that only God shall pass full judgment on a person.

    I don't hold one mistranslation as superior to another. It's pretty clear through the other uses of the word used in the commandment, that it means more than just "thou shalt not murder".

    It isn't as sweeping as "thou shalt not kill", but it isn't as subjectively interpretable as "thou shalt not murder".

    The word doesn't translate into English perfectly.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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