It occurs in other places as well.
Anyone with any sense of linguistics at all knows that many words exist that are not easily translated into another language as a single word. It's pure idiocy to assume that either "Murder" or "Killing" fully encapsulate the meaning of the Hebrew word.
One thing I give credit to the Catholics about, their version is less prone to hypocritical justification. Most protestants I know are so steeped in subjectivity on the killing matter that I often laugh my ass off when they say someone else is guilty of moral subjectivism.
How is saying little more than "you're wrong, I'm right" showing that someone is incorrect?Please Tucker, do not try and preach my own Bible to me. I know it inside and out in it's many different translations and versions. As I have shown you are incorrect, and it does not work like that in this case.
Pure nonsense. The word is more complicated than Murder or Kill in English, which is what actually causes the translation problem. It is exactly a matter of interpretation because it cannot be adequately translated into English using a single word.It is not a question of interpretation, it is an admitted mistranslation.
Ironically, you've misinterpreted what I was trying to get at. I agree that it is a lesson about forgiveness and revenge. It's very clear.Taken out of context and without any real knowledge of the Bible, I can see how you and others would make that mistake.
It is a lesson about forgiveness and revenge, not literally letting someone beat you or kill you.
If you read the Catholic catechisms, you'll see that the Catholics can correctly claim that they follow both the commandment AND Jesus' teachings on the matter. Cases like the Death Penalty (which is undeniably "revenge" killing) and their arguments that war must be, in all cases, a last resort and only in self-defense also conforms to both the Commandment and Jesus' teachings.
I don't see the same consistency from many Protestant groups. I see moral subjectivity and Justifications for things that should be considered sins by the words of their own savior.
So be it. It's their choice. My point was that what you consider a sin isn't the same as what others consider a sin and that just because you think you got it right, doesn't actually mean you do.
Tucker Case - Tard magnet.
According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10).
Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).
So you can deny it if you like, but I am correct.
The same religion that called for the Crusades in God's name.
The same religion that backed the Nazi's in WWII.
The same religion that held the inquisition.
The Same religion that ignores direct commandments like no Idolatry etc.
The same religion that protects child molesters. In fact it is still going on in other countries now as it was in the US.
Again, don't try and preach my own religion to me. I know it much better than you my friend.
In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus expands on the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude to wards them...
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
"Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny." - Matthew 5:21-26, KJV
Here in the KJV they use the word "murder" instead of kill. I wonder why those crafty old Catholics would do this when Jesus IS talking about the 6th commandment.
No misinterpretation here.
Now we should return to the subject at hand and stop hijacking the thread with something that was actually a pretty small part of my overall argument.
Last edited by Black Dog; 03-14-10 at 01:39 AM.
No Lives Matter
The answer to this question lies in the first principle of hermaneutics (interpretation), which is "first interpret scripture with more scripture".
"Thou shalt not kill" is a blanket statement. Thou shalt not kill what? Anything? Rabbits? Bugs? Microbes?
Under what circumstances? "Thou shalt stand still while thine enemy rapes and murders thy daughters"?
Obviously more interpretation is called for.
Taken as a whole scripture does not condemn all killing, or all warfare, nor self-defense, nor capital punishment. I can cite scripture supporting this if need be, but it is obvious enough if you read a bit.
There are reasons why "Thou shalt not kill" is very commonly held to refer to the unlawful or unjustified/unnecessary killing of human beings, rather than simply killing in general.
Last edited by Goshin; 03-14-10 at 01:34 AM.
Fiddling While Rome Burns
Carthago Delenda Est
"I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."
Tucker Case - Tard magnet.
The New Testement is pretty clear against capital punishment, as the "turn the other Cheek" is pretty clearly saying that we should not take revenge. It's also pretty clear that only God shall pass full judgment on a person.
I don't hold one mistranslation as superior to another. It's pretty clear through the other uses of the word used in the commandment, that it means more than just "thou shalt not murder".
It isn't as sweeping as "thou shalt not kill", but it isn't as subjectively interpretable as "thou shalt not murder".
The word doesn't translate into English perfectly.
Tucker Case - Tard magnet.